By Dozer, Collector's Edition Disciple (Dozer) on Monday, June 03, 2002 - 02:09 pm: Okay, I know we had a similar thing not too long ago, when I was seeking your help on Gorilla Shaman. But since I am in preparation for my first real sanctioned T1-tournament (the June event in Dülmen), I figure I could ask you again.
My current list first (pretty standard):
The Rainbow Menace (60 cards)
Blue (17)
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Misdirection
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Braingeyser
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor
2 Morphling
Black (6)
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Edict
1 The Abyss
1 Mind Twist
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
Green (2)
1 Regrowth
1 Sylvan Library
White (3)
1 Balance
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Swords to Plowshares
Red (1)
1 Gorilla Shaman
Gold (2)
1 Fire/Ice
1 Crosis’s Charm
Artifacts (8)
1 Zuran Orb
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Sapphire (CE)
1 Mox Emerald (CE)
1 Mox Ruby (CE)
1 Mox Pearl (CE)
1 Mox Jet (CE)
1 Black Lotus (CE)
Lands (21)
4 City of Brass
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Mishra’s Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
Sideboard (15)
1 Dwarven Miner
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Scrying Glass
1 Aura Fracture
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Moat
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Spiritual Focus
1 Teferi’s Response
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Tormod’s Crypt
Of course, this goes under the assumption that someone will lend me the real P9.
Now the question is, if I don't get lent a Time Walk (which I don't assume):
What card can I best put into the Crosis's Charm slot?
The metagame I expect is:
- Tubbies in all colors, almost all including Welders;
- Mono-U, U/b and Keeper;
- some Mono-B and B/x in mostly controllish versions (i.e. not many outright Suicide);
- the inevitable random aggro (Sligh, T1-Grow).
The optimum would be a blue instant for less than three mana which deals with artifacts and creatures permanently. I considered Powder Keg and Swords to Plowshares as well as MD Moat, but I'd really like something Blue (that's why I took Charm over StoP). That's why I thought about a second Mis-D, but another pitch counter is uncanny. Basic Counterspell, maybe, but I feel I'd then be lacking permanent removal.
I also thought about some really janky things like Control Magic, Wall of Razors or Propaganda. Wall of Razors has not gotten out of my mind yet.
Anyway, I need your help. Just keep suggesting. I also appreciate non-standard solutions (like Wall of Razors and Crosis's Charm), because I feel a certain love to that. Maybe even Wall of Diffusion to fend of random Shadow, who knows?
Dozer
Legalize it!
P.S.: I also thought about dropping Fire/ Ice...?
By Nevyn, the Village Idiot (Nevyn) on Monday, June 03, 2002 - 02:39 pm: Recoil might be decent versus tubbies (welder variants anyway) and would fit your blue instant requirement. In the mirror it isnt that bad as it can be used for tempo in the mana wars or to help you get your legendary lands into play over theirs, but I'm no keeper expert. If all else fails, run another cheap counter.
I wouldn't cut fire/ice with welders running around incidentally. If you let them get active you will have an uphill battle and your counters will be pretty bad.
By Green Knight (Greenknight) on Monday, June 03, 2002 - 03:18 pm: What's blue deals with creatures perminatly? Psionic Blast! This could be really good if there is going to be lots of Tubbies, kill those su-shi EOT and let 'em burn for four. As far as a blue card that deals w/ artifact's and creatures I'd go capsize. I am no keeper player but I can say this (capsize) is "non standard", I don't think it's the best choice but it may serve you well. That's all I could come up with. Good luck at the tourny.
By Steve O'Connell, King of Metaphors (Zherbus) on Monday, June 03, 2002 - 03:20 pm: Vanilla Counterspell.
By Azhrei, Paragon of Vintage (Azhrei) on Monday, June 03, 2002 - 04:48 pm: "Legalize it!"
This explains so much... especially the Crosis's Charm.
By The Bahoo (Ben) on Monday, June 03, 2002 - 04:55 pm: "Legalize it!"
Quote:This explains so much... especially the Crosis's Charm.
He may have been referring to Chaos Orb.
By Dozer, Collector's Edition Disciple (Dozer) on Monday, June 03, 2002 - 05:50 pm: I am actually referring to Collector's Edition.
(And since some people often enough mistake me for a toker just because I got long hair and a beard (read: I look like a Hippie), the joke is worth making. Incidentally, I am not against the legalization of Marihuana, but then again, I don't promote it actively. Alcohol is my drug of choice if any.)
Azhrei, do tell: What should I do in your opinion?
(Oh, yeah, and Nevyn's right: I'm not dropping Fire/Ice. Bad idea from the start.)
Dozer
Legalize it!
By Jacob Orlove, aspiring paragon (Orlove) on Monday, June 03, 2002 - 06:01 pm: you could try messing with the SB a little and running cunning wish. It already gets you several useful cards, and with a few tweaks, it could be strong in every matchup.
By Azhrei, Paragon of Vintage (Azhrei) on Monday, June 03, 2002 - 09:55 pm: Well, this is what I play (my SB is more like 30 cards that I swap between depending on my local field-- CoP: Red sucks if no Sligh players show up), so IMO it's the naturally the best version. Matt likes a Counterspell over the Response, but aside from that we have basically the same main deck. It works well for us both, so there must be something to it.
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
4 Strips
1 LoA
4 City
4 Sea
4 Volc
3 Tundra
1 UP
4 FoW
4 Mana Drain
1 Mis-D
1 Response
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Stroke
1 Geyser
1 FoF
2 Morphling
1 Balance
1 StoP
1 D. Blow
1 Abyss
1 Mind Twist
1 YawgWill
1 Chainer’s
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Fire/Ice
1 Sylvan Library
1 Regrowth
1 Zuran Orb
SB:
4 REB
1 StoP
2 CoP: Red
1 Moat
1 CoP: Black
2 Keg
1 Timetwister
1 Scrying Glass
1 BEB
1 Aura Fracture
By Jacob Orlove, aspiring paragon (Orlove) on Monday, June 03, 2002 - 10:20 pm: Chainers? why not diabolic? I thought instant>7 mana flashback
By Kirdape3, the Court Jester of Beatdown (Kirdape3) on Monday, June 03, 2002 - 11:58 pm: I don't understand either, but I bet it's due to the fact that Keeper will often have no problems getting to seven mana in the lategame against control. At that point, the ability to use it twice becomes a major factor (first to off the Morph about to eat you and second if you lose the counterwar).
By Dozer, Collector's Edition Disciple (Dozer) on Tuesday, June 04, 2002 - 07:19 am: Chainer's Edict over Diabolic Edict is pretty established over here, even in Mono-B. I did not include it in my Keeper yet because I did not buy any single Odyssey-block product so far and do not have a Chainer's Edict.
Dozer
Legalize it!
By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Tuesday, June 04, 2002 - 07:23 am: Yeah, funny but I don't own any Odyssey cards myself, but I'm supposed to be trying it in mine too. I think there are more aggro decks after FoF, and even Phid returned in mono blue. It's only dead against Mishras, and decks with Mishra's have creatures anyway.
The initial gauge of instant over flashback late, late, late in the game was still in a mindset of a control dominated environment, I think.
By Azhrei, Paragon of Vintage (Azhrei) on Tuesday, June 04, 2002 - 09:03 am: I prefer the flashback now because I run a maindeck StoP, so instant speed removal isn't a problem-- instead of having 2 instant removal spells, I have 2 instant removal spells and 2 sorceries.
What Chainer's does for me is stall the topdecking war you get sometimes in the Keeper mirror. If my opponent topdecks his last Morphling and I can't counter, I can kill it with flashback, or he's essentially wasted a turn if he remembers and doesn't cast it.
By Mako Satou, Rose among the thorns (Mako) on Tuesday, June 04, 2002 - 06:04 pm: Dozer,
I aggree with use a vanilla counterspell in that slot. Crosis Charm is pretty hard to cast with the BUR in the casting cost I tried Vindicate awhile back and it was horrible trying to cast it.
Teferi's Response is also pretty nice. I been trying it out and I like it but I have Mishra's
if you do play Response play a second one in the board its really really annoying 
I will be really mad if they legalize collectors edition it took me a long time to finally get everything BETA. I had a good portion of it black border initially but getting the rest was so hard. I still need a Ruby by the way.
The corners are all square and you can tell even with sleeves.
Nevyn,
Recoil really isn't that good in Type 1 because whatever it is comes right back down unless you counter it. Its great in type 2 where you can recoil a token.
Azhrei,
How is Chainer's Edict? It seems to me taping 7 really isn't a good idea unless you have 9 mana available. Also it does not kill creature lands or Chimeric Idol / Jade Statue. I have 2 Teferi's Respone after board. You can not safely strip one with out being read for a counterwar KEKEKKEKEKEKE XD
Suddenly Diabolic Edict is so much better then Chainers.
Rakso,
Not only agressive decks have Mishra's I play Mishra's in my control deck. Their effective ness just went up alot thanks to Teferi's Response.
By Gizzard (Gizzard) on Tuesday, June 04, 2002 - 09:07 pm: > It seems to me taping 7 really isn't a
> good idea unless you have 9 mana available.
I'm with Mako on this one. Flashback is useful in a pretty narrow range of situations; pretty much the one that Az describes - "If my opponent topdecks his last Morphling and I can't counter, I can kill it with flashback".
Besides, if you can make 7 mana, you could almost cast Obliterate and reset over the objections of your opponent's last Counterspell. Flashbacking for 7 mana is a cute trick, but if its not even as cool as Obliterate, oh well.
By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Tuesday, June 04, 2002 - 09:41 pm: Mako: I meant that only combo decks don't use Mishras, essentially. Control decks have Shaman and Morphling, or Ophidian and Morphling.
Tapping 7 mana and tapping out isn't a big deal, since when you do, it's after a brutal counter war late in the game.
Gizzard: My Diabolic Edict has been a closet Chainer's lately. I haven't been playing a lot, but I've been thinking, "What if this were Chainer's?" every time I cast Diabolic.
I've been coming across more situations where I could've used the Flashback instead of sitting there with 8 mana on the table and nothing in hand.
I haven't exactly tested it a lot, but I see people playing more and different decks, and might revise my opinion on this slot.
By Steve O'Connell, King of Metaphors (Zherbus) on Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 02:23 pm: I think Chainers is good because the drawback isnt really a big thing in the mirror match. You dont start a counter war with edict, usually, rather that you start a counterwar with something else to force it through.
Thats the way I see it, anyways.
Having the ability to flashback, which people seem to forget about in Type 1, is just adding to the whole card advantage theme.
By Nevyn, the Village Idiot (Nevyn) on Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 02:43 pm: Mako, he was asking for a blue instant (scrollable spell) which could handle enchantments artifacts and creatures. That narrows it down to capsize, rushing river or recoil. I gave him a reasonable answer based on that, and he also listed tubbies/stacker as a concern, which if I am not mistaken can empty it's hand rather quickly. I'm not saying recoil is good in type one, but it does the job he asked for.
By Mako Satou, Rose among the thorns (Mako) on Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 02:53 pm: Rakso,
The reusability of Chainers Edict definately is a strong point but it does not matter if it is reusable if it can not kill creature lands, Chimeric Idol, Jade Stature and the like. It really depends on your meta game whether you need to kill creature lands and animated creatures and how much other removal you play.
Nevyn,
Given that criteria. Capsize might be better because it can be bought back and doesn't require black.
By Anxiety (Anxiety) on Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 04:51 pm: If you really want to think outside the box:
Spite/Malice (mana heavy but versatile)
Tidal Wave (funny and critter kill)
Psi Blast (not as funny but still kill)
Mind Games (lock down stuff, lots of uses)
Illusion/Reality (Blue Instant, destroys an artifact)
-Anxiety