Need to know what is Suicide Black!!!

Beyond Dominia: The Type One Magic Mill: Need to know what is Suicide Black!!!

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By Forgotten Man (Forgot) on Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 01:05 pm:

Hi!
I've played Keeper and Underworld Dreams for some time, but I'd like to know what is the basic skeleton of a Suicide Black deck. I've been away from Magic for a very LONG time...
Thanks for you help, whoever you are.


By White Knight (White_Knight) on Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 01:31 pm:

You DON'T KNOW WHAT SUICIDE BLACK IS???????? I could talk you about it, but I just remembered you can check out the type 1 primers;)


By Steve O'Connell, King of Metaphors (Zherbus) on Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 01:37 pm:

Theres no 'BD Endorsed' Suicide primer.

A basic skeleton (and I'll keep it vague) would be this:

4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Dark Ritual
2-4 Null Rods
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Demonic Consltation
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Necropotence (If there isnt too much life sucking cards already...IE reaver, Carnophage)

4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Hypnotic Specter
8 More critters usually (could be Sarcomancy, Nantuko Shade, Flesh Reaver, *cough* carnophage sucks, and occasionally something else like a skirge)

4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
16-Things that give black mana


By FeverDog (Feverdog) on Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 02:01 pm:

Zherb, saying Carno sucks in Suicide is just silly. Since im probably the most experienced Sui player around here, ill post my current version:

//NAME: Suicide

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress

4 Sarcomancy
4 Carnophage
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Hypnotic Specter

4 Dark Ritual
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
15 Swamp

SB: 3 Contagion
SB: 4 Spinning Darkness
SB: 4 Dystopia
SB: 4 Phyrexian War Beast

Phyrexian War Beast is almost always Masticore but im really trying to get around Light of Day and COP: Black more than weenie decks.

If you are looking for the best anti-control aggro deck, this is the deck for you. Feel free to swap the Shades for Reavers in a heavy control metagame.


By BeBe, the Redeemer (Bebe) on Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 02:02 pm:

Null Rod main is Nerdgator's version against a powered field which he calls Firearms. I prefer Rods in the side and a few Edicts main.

Generally Sarco, Nantuko Shade and Phyrex. Warbeasts are making the cut these days.

The sideboard is usually Spinning Darkness, Rods, 'Cores, and Dystopias...


By The Bahoo (Ben) on Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 03:39 pm:

No Kaervek's Spites?????

There's nothing like the look on a Keeper player's face when you Kaervek's Spite in response to a balance, that alone makes it worth playing.

"Oh, you counter it??? That's fine, discard your hand and sacrifice all your lands!"


By Magimaster (Magimaster) on Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 05:51 pm:

KAervek's Spite sucks against almost alll other decks.

Null Rod's are tech. But they aren't exactly staple, it's more of a meta call.

Feverdog : You say you're the most experienced sui player, but you don't use Consultation.

What is up with that? I'm sure a lot of people would play with more than one in their decks if they could.


By FeverDog (Feverdog) on Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 07:03 pm:

Magimaster is correct about the Null Rods, it completely depends on your metagame whether they are worth maindecking or not, in my case i dont find them vital but they definetly have their place.

Demonic Consultation: I hate it, I hate it, I hate it. Did I mention I hate it?? Every single time i cast that card it bends me over and screws me hard. I understand its potential power but it wont even let me tutor for Will unless im willing to risk losing the game right then and there. I never flame anyone for using it and I know everybody loves the card but I just dont get it. It made perfect sense when Necro was around(the deck) because all you cared about was getting Necro out ASAP, the situation is much different with Suicide. I stand by my playtesting, the card has never helped me more than it hurt me overall, feel free to run it at your own risk.


By Pernicious Dude (Pern) on Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 08:41 pm:

Firearms was Legend's, not Negator's, and it was as much about
losing the self-damaging weenie Zombies and Flesh Reaver for Skittering Skirge and such
as it was about adding Null Rods.

My metagame barely warrants Null Rods on the side let alone main.
Without the Zombies and Reavers it's not suicidal.
It's just fast black disruption.
Whatever it's called, that's one of the decks I play.

It works.


By Magimaster (Magimaster) on Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 09:09 pm:

Feverdog : Using consult takes skill..it's not wise to consult for something wich you only have 2 of in your deck, but for everything else...

Someone once told me long ago (I think Rakso, last summer) that you can't play sui until you realize why it's good.

Ever since I have been playing suicide (1 year) I have never lost by consulting, nor have I ever regretted a consult. There have been close calls, but overall (I'm confident to say 90%+) Consult has helped me more than it has hurt me.

I mean, it's so easy to use it! If you're afraid of it, then it's time to face your fear.

"Learn to use the force, one must"
- Yoda Style quote

PeAcE


By FeverDog (Feverdog) on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 12:06 am:

I have never lost a game with Suicide where i thought: "If only i had drawn a consult, i might have won".


By Magimaster (Magimaster) on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 01:40 am:

Maybe it's cuz you don't play it, then you can't see why it's so good..

Why are you so afraid of it?? you gonna lose a couple of sinkholes, hymns, some swamps, maybe Will or necro, a couple of creatures.

So what. You found the Edict to kill the Morphling and swung through with your Negator for the win.

Demonic Consultation should read :

Demonic Consultation
Instant B
Get target card in your library and put it into your hand, unless you try and get a restricted card, in wich case you deserve to lose anyways.

If I get a Consult in my opening hand, provided the rest is atleast Par, then I almost always keep it, as from there Consult can fetch almost any spell you might want. You can fetch your Wastelands and go Uber Land-D mode, or you can fetch a Negator and race your opponent. You can fetch another Rit for that little extra kick off the start line, you can get that Duress wich you didn't get in your opening hand and get a little head's up on your opponent. You can fetch that Null rod if your opponent managed to get a broken draw of solomoxlotii - whatever. See my point? If you don't, then I doubt you're the most experienced Sui player here.


By FeverDog (Feverdog) on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 01:43 am:

Dude, i HAVE played it, a lot. I playtest thoroughly before i make such claims. The only card i ever consult for is Ritual and losing 3 Hymns, 2 Negators and 3 Shades DOES hurt in the long run. As for your analogy, its my experience that the control player has counter backup for his Morph about 99% of the time.


By Magimaster (Magimaster) on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 01:57 am:

There is no long run if you got that Negator with your consult and killed him in four turns.

You're supposed to demolish his hand wich your discard before you play something like an edict. Granted, it always doesn't happen, but more often than not.


By FeverDog (Feverdog) on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 04:11 am:

I will say this and then no more: I would rather run Tainted Pact.


By Superman on dope (Dope) on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 07:43 am:

I have to go with FeverDog on this one.

I've always hated Demonic Consultation. The hate comes naturally with being one of the worst topdeckers the world has ever seen.


By Justin (Justin) on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 08:05 am:

Generally one wouldnt lose 3 Hymns, 2 Negators and 3 Shades when looking for a dark ritual, since there should be 4 of each in the deck. But then again generally i wouldnt consult for a dark ritual when its only going to net me 1 black mana (since one is spent for the consult then another for the dark ritual). -Justin


By Freddie Williams II (Freddie) on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 08:23 am:

I like consultation, that is on the other side of the table, seeing someone mill 20 cards (and most of their good stuff) into the Removed From game zone makes me feel all warm and gushy inside.

LONG LIVE CONSULT!!!!

Keep mill'n fella's.

-Freddie


By Steve O'Connell, King of Metaphors (Zherbus) on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 10:05 am:

Consult makes stuff you run 3-4 of, 4-5 of. I love the card, even if its taken 3 hymns, 3 sinkholes, and other good junk. It got me what I needed, for one mana AT INSTANT SPEED. If your playing your deck right, you should just win soon thereafter anyways.

I say carnophage sucks because it doesn't let you safely run Flesh Reaver if that what you want to run, or Necropotence which I love. Also, with the speed of this type of deck, a creature costing 1CC and a creature costing 2cc is hardly a big difference. A set of 4, one-drops should be enough and the rest should all be devistating critters.

I like Null Rod, 3 is the magical number in my opinion, because it not only can cripple keeper or mono blue, it can also screw with decks dependant on artifact mana, powder kegs, etc. Its more disruption, and thats what you want from a deck like this, no?

I guess adding 4 Carnophage in Null Rods place will help you in a mirror match, and Feverdog lives in canada, AKA Land of Mono-Black. It just makes other matchups harder in my opinion.

How many keeper/mono blue decks are at your tournaments FeverDog? 1 or 2 if memory serves.

Its kind of like a sailor buying condoms when hes gonna be on the ship with no other woman, save that one officer. Hes gonna be fucking something and it wont most likely be her.


By Steve O'Connell, King of Metaphors (Zherbus) on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 10:05 am:

Consult makes stuff you run 3-4 of, 4-5 of. I love the card, even if its taken 3 hymns, 3 sinkholes, and other good junk. It got me what I needed, for one mana AT INSTANT SPEED. If your playing your deck right, you should just win soon thereafter anyways.

I say carnophage sucks because it doesn't let you safely run Flesh Reaver if that what you want to run, or Necropotence which I love. Also, with the speed of this type of deck, a creature costing 1CC and a creature costing 2cc is hardly a big difference. A set of 4, one-drops should be enough and the rest should all be devistating critters.

I like Null Rod, 3 is the magical number in my opinion, because it not only can cripple keeper or mono blue, it can also screw with decks dependant on artifact mana, powder kegs, etc. Its more disruption, and thats what you want from a deck like this, no?

I guess adding 4 Carnophage in Null Rods place will help you in a mirror match, and Feverdog lives in canada, AKA Land of Mono-Black. It just makes other matchups harder in my opinion.

How many keeper/mono blue decks are at your tournaments FeverDog? 1 or 2 if memory serves.

Its kind of like a sailor buying condoms when hes gonna be on the ship with no other woman, save that one officer. Hes gonna be fucking something and it wont most likely be her.


By Tracer Bullet, Better than Spiff (Tracer) on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 11:34 am:

Nice


By Will, the Walking Dude (Walking) on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 11:50 am:

I think consult is certainly worth it. To the point where I would probably rather play consult than DT. As it is I play both.

If your library is sufficiently randomized then removing a large chunk of it should not effect the distribution or mix of cards in the remaining chunk. Maybe some days you'll remove more threats, other days remove more lands, but as long as you shuffle you deck well it should have NO negative effect on your draws after you consult.

The other reason I like consult is that it's an extra one-drop. I know my build of suicide and several other peoples are 2 drop heavy. 2 null rods, 4 hymn, sink, shade, reaver, and 1 DT.


By Magimaster (Magimaster) on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 01:00 pm:

Think of Consulting in this light (?darkness?)

You have a 60 card deck. You almost never draw even 20 cards from it every game.

When you consult...you remove at max 20-30 cards (depending on what you consult for, how much of it is in your deck).

You're not gonna deck yourself.

Think of it in another angle :

Some people say that they enjoy the sui player milling away his deck via. consults.

Tell me, is milling someone's deck an effective strategy? How many decks use Milling as an effective means of kill? Milling doesn't affect the board. Woo hoo he milled away 40 cards from his deck. Unfortunately he's got a Negator on the board and he consulted for a -==- to protect it. What do you do?

do you actually think that using consult will kill you? Only if you're an idiot who consults for a Will or something.

Consult is power. It's one of Black's most retarded spells. It fits nicely with the redundancy of Suicide Black. It was made for Suicide black. If you don't use it because you're afraid of it, because you suck at using it, well then.....


By FeverDog (Feverdog) on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 01:08 pm:

Dont patronize me dude, the card is just too unstable and the deck really doesnt need tutoring in the first place. The only reason we run DT is because it fetches Will and its just plain broken. I never tell anyone not to play it or that it sucks, i just tell them i dont believe the benefits outweigh the risks. And once more, milling half you library DOES affect the game, it may not directly affect the board position but that doesnt mean it has no impact. How smart is it to mill 25 cards away just to have your Negator meet a Plow or an Edict?


By Superman on dope (Dope) on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 01:11 pm:

Because I mise savagely and the fucken card hates me. That's why.


Seriously, I think the card is great and it fits with the whole suicide theme, but I'm definitely not thinking of cutting my DT for it. ;)


By Superman on dope (Dope) on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 01:14 pm:

Damn late post. That's directed at Magimaster of course.


By MattB (Mattb) on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 02:27 pm:

You have a 60 card deck. That deck is theoretically randomized, the next 10 cards could be great, they could be all land, its random.

Consulting only hurts you in two ways (presuming your not a total idiot and Consult for a restricted card):

1) It introduces a randomness to the game. Note that this randomness is equally weighted in that it could be good or bad for you in equal proportions. (Presuming the average Consult is 15 cards, those 15 cards could have been exactly what you needed, or could have been crap, equal chance for either).

2) It is a chance some of your restricted cards get milled away. If you didn't play Consult, you'd have no chance to mill your Will, if you do, this is the only non-random cost (other than the card itself and 1 B mana). Of course, there is the very small chance also, that you name Negator, and all 4 of them are in the first 7 cards, but if your luck is that bad, you weren't meant to win...

So, basically, here's the question (again presuming a highly redundent deck). Is an instant speed tutor, costing B, worth it to you, when the only other cost is a basically 35-40%chance any particular restricted card will get milled away in the process? If your restricted cards are very important to your deck, don't play Consult. On the other hand, in a deck like Suicide, it makes a lot of sense to play Consult, in my opinion.


By FeverDog (Feverdog) on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 02:40 pm:

How is Consult really worth it in Suicide? If you cant consult for restricted cards(duh) then you are left with tutoring either for disruption(Hymn, Sink) or for a threat (Negator, Hippie, shade) right? But your entire deck is disruption & creatures so your next draw is very likely to net you one or the other. Maybe Firearms variants that only run 12 creatures need to tutor for them but most other Sui decks run 16-20 critters which is enough to put pressure on your opponent. I know ppl will keep playing Consult because its potentially powerful but i just dont see the need for it. If my luck improves somehow and i start getting really good consults than MAYBE i will consider it but for now i would rather run something else. For the record, i have 2 different builds of Suicide, the "standard" build which i posted above and one with the following changes that im testing:

-4 Sarcomancy

+2 Diabolic Edict
+1 Necropotence
+1 Swamp

In that version, Consult becomes even less desireable because i have one more powerful restricted card i cant tutor for and consulting for an Edict when you only have 2 in the deck can sometimes leave you with a 5 card library.


By Steve O'Connell, King of Metaphors (Zherbus) on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 03:00 pm:

Wait wait wait, you'd cut SARCOMANCY over Carnophage? To fit in a NECRO? And leave CARNOPHAGE in?

Please tell me thats a typo.

Carnophage hurt you no matter what and make necro less effective.

Sarco's don't automatically hurt you and give you extra perms to sac to negator.


By Steve O'Connell, King of Metaphors (Zherbus) on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 03:21 pm:

Oh, and as for 'patronizing' you. It was a bit rude to just brush off everything I said to help someone asking about the deck.


Quote:

Zherb, saying Carno sucks in Suicide is just silly. Since im probably the most experienced Sui player around here, ill post my current version:




You might as well said,

"Zherbus, your a fucking moron. I hope you wiped your asscrack after that little dribble of shit you just let out because something smells like ASS and I'm almost certain its you.

Dont listen to what he, or anyone else here said for I am the ONLY good suicide player, not to mention the single most experienced."

While your build may kick ass up there in Canada, I question its ability to be as awesome in a different environment.


Quote:

The only reason we run DT is because it fetches Will and its just plain broken.




Or to grab that stripmine to keep your opponent facked. Maybe grab a negator against control after they just wasted the 2 spot critter removals spells in their deck. You could also grab that null rod against...oh wait.


Quote:

I never tell anyone not to play it or that it sucks, i just tell them i dont believe the benefits outweigh the risks.




Thats fine. Not running consult because of past experiences involved rape counciling, group hugs, and scars you prefer not to discuss, is totally understandable.

I just think your logic behind tutoring in suicide is a bit off. I'd tutor for necro, MAYBE yawgmoths will. With consult you have to go into the game understanding it fetches cards you have 3-4 of only.

Don't run it. Fine, theres plenty of toys that can take its place.

For the record I never play suicide in tournaments, closest I go is my aggro-void. I do use suicide as a test deck against my own keeper, and my friends decks. (Which vary from tubbies, Sligh, OSE, to dreams.dec) So you see what type of deck I face with suicide, what do YOU see?


By Forgotten Man (Forgot) on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 04:07 pm:

Wow!
This is getting out of hand! I wanted the basic skeleton fo Suicide Black and it kind of evolved into something far better! Thanks to all of you. I'm going to have some fun for deck building and testing.
Dominique


By Dozer, Collector's Edition Disciple (Dozer) on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 04:35 pm:

I should have seen this earlier... But hey, the whole thread is barely 30 hours old. What an eternity...


Quote:

Zherb, saying Carno sucks in Suicide is just silly.



Huh? Carnophage sucks. Yeah, call me silly, too.
I played Carnophages until I got Sarcomancies, then I dropped my Carnos from the deck and glued them into my binder.

Negator, Hyppie, Sarcomancy, Reaver, Shades are filling all creature slots nicely. Where else 'd be space for Carnophage?

(Or are *you* playing Hatred?)

On Demonic Consultation: I use it, and I love it, but I understand everybody who doesn't like it.

Dozer

Legalize it!


By Steve O'Connell, King of Metaphors (Zherbus) on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 05:04 pm:

Um. You are saying they dont suck, yet they dont make the cut in your suicide black either?


By Dozer, Collector's Edition Disciple (Dozer) on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 05:14 pm:

They do suck! That's why I glued them into my binder. Before I got Sarcomancies, I played Carnophages - which made my Suicide suck.

Dozer

Legalize it!


By Tangled (Tangled) on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 05:28 pm:

It doesn't mill your cards it removes them from the game. If they were in my graveyard I may feel differently. I'd rather have an effective Y. Will. than a Consult for something I already have 4 of. I don't consult for restricted cards or cards less than 3. Maybe for an edict if the loss looks inevitable.

I agree it's a good card. unfortunately I've had the mispleasure of some poor consult's. We all have different styles of play. Not every Keeper deck is the same. Why should every Suicide deck be the same. I understand all of Steve's points, but I still choose not to play with it in my deck.

I agree that we should all have the opportunity to disagree.


By Magimaster (Magimaster) on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 06:49 pm:

If you've killed yourself with it it's because you were desperate or just plain dumb.

Okay, this thread is getting out of hand.

Let me tell you tho' if Suicide could run 4 Consultations, it can consistently lay beats to keeper and all the other big decks.

It's fine then..if some of you disagree, even some of the "most experienced" players...but don't tell other people it sucks just cuz some of you can't use it (for whatever strange reason that may be).


By PennyLane (Penny) on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 08:35 pm:

As I recall I haven't resorted to name calling unlike some people. Calling me dumb and saying that I don't know how to Consult properly is equally as childish. When I state that I am one of the more experienced Suicide players I'm not bragging but simply stating a fact.

...For the record I never play suicide in tournaments...
I could got to town with this one but as I really don't want to start a flame war I won't.

There are many people who agree with me about Consult and just as many who disagree. All I have done is state my opinion and for those who like the card they may play it without fear of retribution.

Finaly, concerning Sarcomancy vs. Carnophage, the decision is not as clear cut as some would think. While it is true that Sarco is superior against control and combo, it is far less impressive vs agro decks. My meta game consists of a good number of rogue decks and I prefer Carnophage in those match ups because unlike Sarcomancy I have never died to Carno damage. I'm not saying that Carno is a better card only that it is better in my meta game.


By PennyLane (Penny) on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 08:41 pm:

First let me state that the above post is by me "FeverDog". I am simply at my cousin's house using her computer.

I also wanted to add that when Demonic Consultation was unrestricted nobody played four of them in suicide. It is true that people ran four copies in Hatred but that deck had much more of a combo element and is quite different from traditional Suicide.


By Steve O'Connell, King of Metaphors (Zherbus) on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 09:20 pm:


Quote:

...For the record I never play suicide in tournaments...
I could got to town with this one but as I really don't want to start a flame war I won't.




Why? Because I play better ALL AROUND decks in tournament play, but I play against the best decks in testing? No, really...rip me apart.


Quote:

Finaly, concerning Sarcomancy vs. Carnophage, the decision is not as clear cut as some would think. While it is true that Sarco is superior against control and combo, it is far less impressive vs agro decks. My meta game consists of a good number of rogue decks and I prefer Carnophage in those match ups because unlike Sarcomancy I have never died to Carno damage. I'm not saying that Carno is a better card only that it is better in my meta game.




Ok, in all seriousness, wouldnt sarco have a better synergy with negator?


By FeverDog (Feverdog) on Thursday, May 30, 2002 - 01:57 am:

First off, saying Carnophage SUCKS (not that Sarco is better) IS silly, a 2/2 for one mana with a reasonable drawback does not suck. Yes Steve, Sarco absolutely has better synergy with Negators, no argument there. The fact is i often find myself losing several life points because my opponent has disposed of my Zombie token (2/2s arent invincible you know). I have lost games where i had 3 Sarcos on the table... and my opponent dropped an Abyss, had i not been taking 3 dmg a turn i could have made a comeback but i died a horrible death. I acknowledge that Sarcomancy is a better card than Carnophage but my statement about it being better vs other creature decks is right on. Against Sligh, Stompy and WW ::audience laughs:: those Sarco tokens tend to die very quickly and the damage i take from them often hurts quite a bit. On the other hand, if Carnophage is hurting me then its beating on my opponent at the same time and if it gets burned away or trades with Ogre or something then the damage stops there instead of helping my opponent race me. You cant just look at the two cards side-by-side, you have to look at where im coming from.

As for playing better all-around decks in tourneys, you have to be referring to Keeper, OSE, MonoU and the like. Im sad to say i dont have the kind of cash you need to build one of those decks properly, if you have the cards to build them then fine, play those decks. Just tell me what decks you fear the most when playing those top decks, i guarantee Suicide is one of them. I dont think one can find a better deck for around 100 bucks.

Lastly, people, stop the hate. We all play our Suicide decks differently and we all use slightly different builds. Mine is just right for my area, that doesnt mean it would rock at NG(where i would definetly run Reavers), it just means i know what works where "I" play. Peace


By Dozer, Collector's Edition Disciple (Dozer) on Thursday, May 30, 2002 - 03:33 am:

It is correct that Sarcomancies can hurt a bit in creature combat. I personally never had problems with that, because I usually have a Negator out by the time the Sarcos annoy me. Since most creature decks tend to have creatures smaller than 5/5, blocking one of those with Negator (e.g. Elves, River Boa, Kird Ape) takes care of both problems at once. Of course, you need to gamble on the pump spells, but more often than not (especially against hand-dumping aggro) Duress and Hymn take good care of those.

I mulligan every starting hand where Sarcomancies are my only creature, but I would not play Carnos over them even in a aggro-heavy matchup, and I tell you why: In a creature standoff, I had it sitting there doing nothing than hurting me too often. In most cases you can't allow yourself to attack for all or nothing or even with Carno alone, so it sits there just like a Serendib Efreet and damages you turn after turn. Damage from Sarcomancy can be prevented by careful play. Carnophage just pings you no matter what.

Now, if Reavers just were Zombies...:)

Dozer

Legalize it!


By Magimaster (Magimaster) on Thursday, May 30, 2002 - 04:10 am:

You know..you can just tap a carno to prevent it from hurting you...

If reaver's were Zombies...damn that would be awesome...

why? Just wondering :) I can't think of a possible answer, other than it will allow you to play reaver instead of carno for better synergy with sarco ;)


By FeverDog (Feverdog) on Thursday, May 30, 2002 - 04:39 am:

Wow, i agree with Magimaster... isnt that the fourth sign of the apocalypse? :)


By Steve O'Connell, King of Metaphors (Zherbus) on Thursday, May 30, 2002 - 06:33 am:

Your right, I play keeper and nether void in tournaments, and both decks dont exactly blow off suicide. Thats why I have my test version set the way I do.

Against Keeper, a well placed Null Rod can really suck. Sometimes, It does nothing and an early abyss just does its job regardless. Against nether void, it kill the artifact mana (mox, lotus, and sol ring) and the maindeck critter kill - Kegs.

Let me rephrase my original statement, carnophage just doesn't make the cut when you only have 16 slots to devote to creatures. Sarco, negator, hypno, and reaver/shade are all superior. You have the luxery of not having to run Null Rod so...if I got 4 Foil DCI Carnophages, maybe. :)


By Redman, Relentless Leader of Scrubs (Redman) on Thursday, May 30, 2002 - 03:24 pm:

Just to add my opinion where it doesn't count for much:

I actually prefer Carnophages to Reaver/Shade, as I Reaver seems not to work well against burn decks, Shade ies up mana that should be used to disrupt, and being able to play 3 threats first turn with a ritual with good consitency is nice.

On Consult: I usually reccomend Mind Twist in it's place, at least for my brother. While he is probably the best Hymner I have ever seen, he is the worst Consulter. For him, it seems to read:

Demonic Consultation
B Instant
Name a card. All copies of the named card are now on the bottom of your deck, and all others are removed fro the game. Have a nice day.


By Superman on dope (Dope) on Thursday, May 30, 2002 - 03:59 pm:

I thought I was the worst Consulter in history. Three games in a row, baby. All cards in the top six, milled myself out. And for you wiseasses, I consulted for cards with 3-4 left, so don't go thinking I'm consulting for my Y.Will. I promptly tore all the copies of Consult I owned.

Mind Twist is powerful, but always seemed unnecessary to me with 8 discard spells already. Also, I don't have any space for it as I run Necro in my version. I don't know why anyone wouldn't be running Necro. Hell, it's the most bah-roken card drawer in history!


By Will, the Walking Dude (Walking) on Thursday, May 30, 2002 - 04:29 pm:

Not using consult because of bad experiences with it in the past makes emotional sense. It is, however, irrational. Events are separate, if you flip a coin and get heads 5 time in a row it doesn’t mean you will get heads the next time nor does it mean you are due tails. Each random event is separate. This means that when you evaluate consult you should not do it based on good or bad experiences but on the expected outcome statistically. If there is a relatively even mix of threats, spells, and lands in your deck (and there should be overtime assuming the deck ahs been randomized) then consult should not affect the mix in what remains of your library. It might remove a restricted card, but that’s all the harm its rational to expect.

If you feel that you get consistently bad consults I think its most likely one of 4 possibilities.

1) You are playing on apprentice. The apprentice shuffler is lousy, that could account for it. This should not effect real life builds.
2) Perhaps it just seems like you get bad ones often. Traumatic events stand out in your mind far more than normal ones. Someone who eats fish a 100 times with no ill effects may get food poisoning once and give up fish. It could just be that the bad consults stand out in your mind so your memory is skewed. Try keeping a written record of every consult you make. This is less subject to psychological skew.
3) Perhaps you don’t shuffle well enough. Before each game give the deck 8 riffle shuffles then a pile shuffle and then another 2-3 riffle shuffles. Additional shuffling can often improve a decks performance. Most people don’t shuffle enough (that’s a fact, not a judgment you can do some quick online research via google to confirm that, although the research I’ve read is for 52 card rather than 60 card decks)
4) Someone in your tournament practices voodoo or witchcraft and has put a hex on your deck. The recommended solution here is to pick up a copy of voodoo for dummies and learn some counter charms.


By Magimaster (Magimaster) on Thursday, May 30, 2002 - 06:23 pm:

Totally agree with Will the walking dude...I was trying to say something along the lines of that, but couldn't put the words together.

I'm a lousy arguer. (is that a word?)


By Magimaster (Magimaster) on Thursday, May 30, 2002 - 06:24 pm:

Superman : running Necro with Reaver's is a big no no ;)


By Kirdape3, the Court Jester of Beatdown (Kirdape3) on Thursday, May 30, 2002 - 10:30 pm:

I'm starting to lean towards this creature configuration:

4x Carnophage
4x Sarcomancy
3x Nantuko Shade
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Phyrexian Negator

Shade, for those who are not believers, is one of those cards that works better than the hype. The whole point of the disruption is for the creatures to survive long enough to deal 20 damage, right? Therefore, when you drop a Shade the amount of disruption that you have to have decreases; the creature is far more survivable and can deal the damage required without as much support.

As an ancillary side benefit, Shade rapes Sligh if you have half a brain (keep mana open to boost in case of burn) and fights Morphling.


By Magimaster (Magimaster) on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 12:31 am:

I run 4 Shades. Shades are powerhouse, unstoppable little beasts. Feed empty mana into them. Useless late game rits. Bash through an Oath'd out Morph. Dark Rit = Giant Growth. Hella fast race machine. They are awesome....

I've been running 12 creatures only for a while now...

4x Shade
4x Sarco
4x Negator

it's been decent, but I've implemented more creatures....


By FeverDog (Feverdog) on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 12:42 am:

Your running 12 creatures? This is probably why your a fan of Consult, because you often wont have enough threats. Unless you have some other dmg sources i dont know about (Cursed Scroll?) thats a little too low. I know how hard it is to fit in everything you want but i would REALLY suggest running Hypnotic Specter, its a creature with built-in disruption and i have never seen a Suicide deck that doesn run it.


By Magimaster (Magimaster) on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 01:17 am:

My deck isn't the issue here. I don't need your advice. You're the one telling me you're the most experienced sui player here, yet you refuse to acknowledge the power of the Consult because you have had several bad experiences with it. Now you claim it only works good in my deck because I run less creatures.

Consult works regardless of what environment you play in, it doesn't matter if you have 12 or 20 creatures.

How does me having had 12 creatures make consulting better? In Theory it should make it worse, as by consulting, I remove some threats, and I run so little of them.

explain your logic.

PS. I know the Hyppie all too well, don't treat me like a noob.


By Magimaster (Magimaster) on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 01:26 am:

PS. you'll never remove me from my stand at using Consultation. I fully endorse the card, regardless of some people who have been magically cursed by the bad luck bitch.

This thread is crap.


By Tracer Bullet, Better than Spiff (Tracer) on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 02:08 am:

Ok, people, it's time to grow the fuck up.


You guys need to realize what this thread is about. I'll tell you right now, it's not your fucking egos.

Forgotten Man asked a simple question, and dispite differing viewpoints, a simple answer was all that was needed. I don't care who thinks they're the most experienced Suicide player on these boards, it doesn't matter. What matters is getting the information to somebody who's asking.


In regards to what suicide black is:

Suicide Black is a quick, disruptive Mono-B deck designed to disrupt a bit and smash through with undercosted efficent creatures. Negator and Hyppie fill that role best. All suicide decks run Duress and Hymn as their primary disruption, along with Strips. Some (not all) run Sinkholes and/or Null Rods to further the disruption end of the stick. More often than not, it's directly dependant upon your metagame. All suicide decks run Yawgmoth's Win, and most all run Necropotence. The deck gets it's name from the multitude of self-destructive creatures in the deck.

My personal spins on the deck:
I love Consult. I know some people have been unlucky with it, but more often than not, it's due to inability to choose well the cards they consult for. I think Shade, Hypnotic, and Negator are automatically the first 3 creature slots in the deck, and I personally like War Beast and Null Rod split for the last spot. I run Sinks, as I find that disruption is far more often than not the key to winning against most all decks. Flesh Reavers are too over the top for me, as I'll often see just too much aggro for them to be efficent.


To some of the other people in the thread: Grow up, and get over your damned egos. That means you, Fever, and you, Magimaster.


By FeverDog (Feverdog) on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 02:45 am:

@ Magimaster, your build IS very much the issue here. You say you dont want to be treated like a newbie yet you dont even run Hypnotic Specters in your deck. The fact that you know Specters and how good they are just makes me wonder even more why you're not running them. As for the Consult, i NEVER tried to get you to stop playing it, all i said was that i hate it personally and that it has screwed me too many times. Also, the reason i said Consult might be more needed in your deck is because with only 12 creatures you have a decent chance of having an opening hand with absolutely no damage sources and in that situation consulting for a Negator would be key. Stop acting like im attacking you personally just because i dont like to run Consult in my deck, i didnt direct any insults towards you or anybody else in this thread yet somehow im the one whos getting blamed here. I really dont understand how my claim of being one of the most experienced Suicide players translates into telling people to ignore your advice or point of view.

@ Tracer, dont blame me for the direction this thread has taken, i wasnt the one who started slinging insults and cursing. If you read the whole thread you will see that i never insulted anyone and that i even agree with Magimaster about certain points, im tired of defending myself when i have committed no crime.


By Magimaster (Magimaster) on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 03:15 am:

My build is old, ignore it.

I was getting carried away, so just ignore me.

I have no ego, it was demolished last year in an incident I'd rather forget.

Fever (and Tracer?) sorry for the crap I put you guys through..it's not my place to force you to use a card.

Hell..I'm the one trying out Sylvan Library in stompy :D


By Tracer Bullet, Better than Spiff (Tracer) on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 03:20 am:

Well, Fever, it isn't so much that you started slinging insults, it's the fact that in the first line you posted you said "im probably the most experienced Sui player around here". Now, wether or not that's true, the fact remains that it's likely to piss a hell of a lot of people off. You don't have to flame to start a flame war.


By TSPRT (Tsprt) on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 07:28 am:

"I am -probably- the most experienced" means little.
Something like "I will probably draw my 7 card combo from my 156 card deck, in which, there are only 1 of each combo piece."

on the other hand, "grow the fuck up"= irony.

Consult, when the card it brings is nullified, is a losing condition. So one must make sure that what you are consulting, will get through. It must be used with hand disruption and intuition. (not the card) Theoretically, it fits nice into sui black, since there are on average 8-9 direct hand disruptions and you draw them. But my point is, it is a dead card otherwise.


By Superman on dope (Dope) on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 01:59 pm:

Magimaster: I don't run Reavers, so Necro is da beeyatch.

I respect your decision to run Consult and I understand your reasons for liking the card, but I personally will never be convinced into running it in my deck. Call it superstition, bad voodoo or what. :)

Will: I play in real life, and I do shuffle my deck. It must be really bad mojo. Probabilities and trauma aside, I think the fucken card hates me. I'm not saying it sucks or anything, just that I don't need it, or want to risk it. It seems to be a perfectly reasonable card for most others, and I'm not against anyone using it if they so choose. Just making this clear. ;)


By Erik (Erik) on Saturday, June 01, 2002 - 12:55 pm:

For someone lacking sinkholes, do you think they should be replaced by 3cc landkill (rancid earth, icequake) or other 2cc cards (more creatures)?


By Tracer Bullet, Better than Spiff (Tracer) on Saturday, June 01, 2002 - 08:19 pm:

A hell no on the 3cc land kill. Simply too slow. I'd probably just reccomend either A: Null Rods if you're not already running them, or B: More Critters.


By wuaffiliate (Wu) on Sunday, June 02, 2002 - 02:55 pm:

"Shade, for those who are not believers, is one of those cards that works better than the hype."

anyone who plays mono B should know that. also they really should know how good consult is in a deck where getting a first turn duress, and 2nd turn consult for ritual and lay gator is so good.

but people will always disagree, no point is arguing :)


By Will, the Walking Dude (Walking) on Monday, June 03, 2002 - 07:24 am:

As far as mana goes, here is the mana for my build of suicide, do you guys think its to mana heavy or just about right
17 swamp
4 waste
1 srip
1 mox jet
4 rits

Those power
4 hippies
4 shades
4 reavers
4 negators
4 hymns
4 sinks
4 duress
2 null rod
1 demonic tutor
1 demonic consultation
1 yawgwill


By Dozer, Collector's Edition Disciple (Dozer) on Monday, June 03, 2002 - 07:24 am:

The three-cc-land kill is a metagame decision. In cases you are not optimizing your deck for a highly competitive tournament environment, 3-cc-LD may be ok. If there's no power around (i.e. everything's slower), and people play sub-optimal decks, or often try shifty concepts to boot, 3-cc-LD works.

Still, Tracer is right: Better have another critter than 3-cc-LD. If you use it anyway, remember that Icequake is the best because Chocking Sands does not kill Underground Seas.

Dozer

Legalize it!


By Magimaster (Magimaster) on Monday, June 03, 2002 - 12:26 pm:

Will : With a mox , you can easily slip down to 16-15 lands and not screw yourself :)


By FeverDog (Feverdog) on Monday, June 03, 2002 - 03:09 pm:

I recently increased my mana count to 27 with Rituals and although i found it nice to have an extra mana but i cant say it made a huge difference. In my opinion 26 is the minimum but if you have room then an extra land doesnt hurt.


By wuaffiliate (Wu) on Monday, June 03, 2002 - 05:32 pm:

i think 25 is the best mix, ive been using it for months now and i cant complain


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