Current decklist for Keeper

Beyond Dominia: The Type One Magic Mill: Current decklist for Keeper

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By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 07:34 am:

_Giver_

Counter-magic:10

4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
1 Misdirection

Tutoring and Manipulation: 4
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Impulse (foil, so it's okay)

Reasons to Not Play Mono-U: 6
1 Shaman
1 Balance
1 Sylvan
1 Regrowth
1 Yawgwill
1 Mindtwist

Board Control: 4
1 Fire/Ice (best card ever)
1 Edict
1 Dismantling Blow
1 The Abyss

Blue Draw: 4
1 Ancestral
1 Geyser
1 FoF
1 Stroke

Killing: 2
2 Morphling

Misc. Stuff: 2
1 Zorb
1 Timewalk

Mana: 28

5 Moxen
1 Sol
1 Lotus
1 LoA
4 City
4 Sea
4 Volcanic
3 Tundra
3 Wasteland
1 Strip
1 U.P. (the gimp land)

Well, since no one will fight with me over my use of Sylvan, Scroll, D.Blow, or Fire/Ice anymore I racked my brains to come up with something, anything really questionable to include in the deck.

Well, here we go: the Vamp tutor slot is currently occupied by Impulse. Besides the card disadvantage and non-blue hue, its poor interaction with Sylvan (it nearly always cheats me out of a card I could have drawn) finally got on my nerves enough to kick it to the curb for good. In the unrestricted FoF era I gleefully played with no vamp since I had plenty of fast digging, so I'm not particularly worried about replacing a tutor with a digger. I've played with it in the last few tourneys and haven't felt at a loss versus aggro.

The green or (more likely) blue wish may replace this and Merchant Scroll #2 or Timetwister are always under consideration. However Twister is so incredibly bad against burn and mono-U. Merchant Scroll DOES fetch other things besides ancestral, but the prospect of drawing TWO scrolls after I've already drawn three is a little unattractive.

Teferi's Response was also tested, but the card hates me and ONLY shows up right after the last sinkhole/strip/etc. hits me. I also do not run Mishra's Factories like the majority of control decks at NG.

Overall, I'm happy with the decklist, but I would _really_ like to work a StP into the maindeck. Any ideas on this or a better Vamp replacment are welcome.

The sideboard isn't listed because the NG $250 is coming up this (?) weekend and I've added some new stuff to harass opponents.

--Matt


By Helm of Obey Mah Ah-thor-ih-tie (Mason) on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 09:34 am:

I used to hate this card, but with the amount of deck manipulation you're doing, Brainstorm isn't half bad. It serves a purpose vaguely similar to Impulse, and can work alongside Impulse. It gets you a solution right now at the expense of future draws, again, unless you use some sort of deck shuffler, which helps your Sylvan Library anyway. There are better cards, though.

A card I like for its ability to set up multiple draws is Lim-Dul's Vault, but IMHO Vampiric Tutor edges it out, so if you're not going to play Vamp, I don't see you playing Vault either.

You're not playing Tolarian Academy, so this might not be feasible for you, but Planar Portal can be a game breaker. Your opponent pretty much has to counter it. It comes in at a reasonable pace through Drain mana. One use gets you Tolarian Academy, which powers it almost for free most of the time. Given a fairly small amount of mana, you can shuffle your deck (and, oh, Demonic Tutor) at the end of each of your opponent's turns, which is GREAT for Sylvan Library. And, it sides out quite easily against mono-black land destruction! Speaking of Academy, think of the raw card economy versus blue decks in general... Drop your own Academy and now you don't have to waste a Strip or Wasteland on your opponent's Academy. It's like free cards! :-P (Yeah, they can just as easily do this to you, but it's still fun. Also, think of it versus Combo, where they don't necessarily run Strips but they do run and need Academy.)

Failing this, I'd use the Impulse slot for Jayemdae Tome or something... Maybe even Scrying Glass, although I'm personally not a fan of that yet.

Lastly, would you rather draw Time Walk, or Misdirection? I'd look at this choice as "win faster" versus "don't lose". Time Walk might help with an early land drop, and it might help with late-game Morphling beats, but Misdirection can snag an Ancestral or a Stroke, or, if needed, an Edict.

I know it's pretty evil thinking of playing without Time Walk, but my control deck is doing well after making that painful cut. :-)


By Freddie Williams II (Freddie) on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 09:34 am:

Did you have acadamey in this deck before?

I am a HUGE fan of Impulse, but like it in multiples.

I agree about the Tefferi's Responce... It hates me too.

---------------------------My only qualm with this sweet ass decklist:-------------------------------

I personally dislike counterspell in control.

I look at the type of counters in my keeper like this:

1. What threat does it stop?
2. What advantage/ pleasant side effect does it produce?
3. Why should I play this over any other counter?

-------

Counterspell does stop any threat (other then uncounterable -hate- crap)

There is NO advantage to counter spell, and with a UU casting it is basicly a bad mana drain.

Why play this over another counter? I have no idea.

------
Mana leak stops early threats (early threats that sometimes will end the game by themselves), and also can end out a series of baits/ counter war.

Why play this over another counter? I would play mana leak over counterspell, 1st turn land + mox.

I agree that mana leak is less then optimum, but at least, if counterspell was a mana leak, it could stop that 1st turn hyppie, Negator, or Hymmn, or other crap normally pitch countered.

Counterspell could be your beloved long lost STP, finally opening up the sleeve for that little white beauty. Stopping that 1st turn hyppie or negator... ect.

Counterspell just stops a threat, no advantage, plain old vanilla "counter target spell."

It could also be a second impulse, since it acts like a mini tutor.

Gimp lands are cool.

:)

-Freddie

(DISCLAIMER: Freddie E Williams II is not trying to suggest that keeper needs to run mana leak... just that mana leak is more advantageous in the crucial early game, then counterspell is, and that Counterspell has NO friggin style! - Thank you.)


By Steve O'Connell, King of Metaphors (Zherbus) on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 09:39 am:

This is a tad off topic, and I know you've explained why before, but why no academy?

As for the swords thing, I think that you are playing with counter #10 instead of swords. I am running a 61 card keeper, almost identical (My mana base is like 2 cards off) to the one you had not too long ago. Now that I've given it some thought I'm going to cut counter #10 from the deck and see how that runs.

Impulse over tutor. You've got to REALLY hate vamp tutor to do that. While I'd rather use Impulse over merchant scroll #2, I really have to test it to be able to appreciate its effectiveness. I got a friend coming over today for playtesting, so Ill just make him run me through the gambit with me using Impulse over vamp.

I guess when you actually look at Vampiric Tutor, you have to think of the pro's and con's.

Pros: It put ANYTHING on top of your deck at instant speed for 1 mana.

Cons: The damage can almost translate into a time walk for your opponent, we all know around what life total keeper can stabilize at.

You also have to wait a turn to get what you need, and its also card disadvantage.

Its not blue.

Impulse does fix all the con's, works well with sylvan, and is great for just sending dead cards (READ Edict vs combo, Abyss vs control, etc) to the bottom where they belong.

I guess in short, I like the choice Matt, I'll see how it goes in testing today.

Steve


By Freddie Williams II (Freddie) on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 09:39 am:

Helm: Sylvan is a brainstorm everyturn.

Planar Portal is WAY easier to counter then Sylvan. Which is what sylvan takes the place of, if I am not mistaken.

Time Walk is crazy, being "the most expensive cantrip in the game" I would not cut it ESPECIALLY if he were running Portal.

Also Yawgmoths will is hary with Timewalk, since it becomes almost a free broken ass turn.

-Freddie


By Helm of Obey Mah Ah-thor-ih-tie (Mason) on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 09:42 am:

Oh... Another card I've been exploring: Dromar's Cavern. The card economy is VERY similar to Undiscovered Paradise on the first use, and over the long term it's somewhat better.

Over the long term against Back to Basics Dromar's Cavern is somewhat worse, but it's somewhat better on first use, under Back to Basics.

There is also good synergy between the two cards. If you have UP in play already and drop a Cavern, you essentially negate the drawback of one or the other if you use both that turn for mana. (Obviously the reverse case doesn't work.) I'm running them both at the moment, one of each, although I've not played anywhere near enough games to have a broad perspective on how good the card is in the real world.


By Helm of Obey Mah Ah-thor-ih-tie (Mason) on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 09:48 am:

Hm. The Impulse-versus-Vamp thing is compelling. It's probably worth a look.

'course, after game one it's possible to Blast Impulse, whereas Vamp stares down Red Elemental Blast and fetches The Abyss anyway. :-P

But, less black in the deck is good, and more blue is obviously good. Worth a look...

Freddie: I'm not saying Portal instead of Sylvan. I'm saying portal in addition to Sylvan. They work together like they were made for it.


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 10:32 am:

"You're not playing Tolarian Academy, so this might not be feasible for you, but Planar Portal can be a game breaker. [snip] Also, think of it versus Combo, where they don't necessarily run Strips but they do run and need Academy."

Noooooooooooooooooooooo!

Sorry to yell, but Planar Portal, while fun as all hell and broken in multiplayer, is not a type I card. It (12 mana to get ONE card) certainly isn't good against combo decks that kill you in 2-4 turns (Academy, 21, ReapLace, Mask.dec). It's just as bad against Suicide, Sligh, Stompy, etc. that kill you nearly as fast and mess with your mana base via Strips, Worbs, Sinkholes, etc.

Ditch Timewalk? No way! I understand the logic, and yes, an Impulse or whatever is better if you are using it for nothing but a cantrip (or desperately prayig to draw an answer). However, walk is never a bad card to draw (unless you topdeck it on an empty hand after mana draining reya dawnbringer or something off the wall like that) and is great in combination with so many other cards in the deck (or cards that could be in the deck, like Timetwsiter). The early extra land drop is really just one possibility. I guess, I'm more willing to have one potentially broken card as opposed to an all-around solid card (like brainstorm) if I can only run a one-of (manabase notwithstanding).

As far as Dromar's Cavern goes, J.P. tested it out in his deck a while back and hated it. I suppose that, combined with my natural misivings about the card, ruled it out without testing it. Don't get me wrong, I see how it COULD be good, or rather less-crappy than U.P., however while it has the ability to be a little better than a UP it has the potential to be much worse. If that's the only colored mana source in your opening hand you are screwed. There have been plenty of times I've kept a UP-only hand because it hand ancestral, Sylvan, or something to do turn one to fix things. Lair lands don't offer that option. If I were to run one it'd be a Treva's Ruins for the white and green components of the deck.

In fact this is part of the reason I don't run Academy. My motto is "One gimp land per deck and no more." Acadmey, like UP, can absolutely screw you sometimes. It might be your only land (or the second which you need for UU) on the draw with no artifacts or your opponent might play a shaman negating it for free along with your mana artifacts. Since Keeper, by it's nature, is inconsistent (meaning each draw is different, not that it doesn't perform well consistently) I dno't want to throw any extra inconsistency into the manabase.

IF I didn't run Sylvan I might ditch UP for the Academy. However, since I'm commited to a true 5-color deck (let's not kid ourselves, at this point I can't ever show up to BD with a Keeper deck without Sylvan even if I wanted to) I think the overall consistency of having another multi-land is worth more than the possibility of brokeness.

As far as the Impulses go, yeah I'm a closet-lover of them myself, particularly in mulitiples, but I can't see cutting broken spells for them. Besides, I only have one foiley one which is, of course, the ultimate deciding factor of what goes into my deck.

Counterspell has no style? Maybe so, but Mis-D #2 doesn't stop Yawgmoth's Will.

Manaleak was tried for awhile, but I came to the conclusion that it was subpar unless you played at least two (thus you could see one early) and 2 Mis-D in addition to the 4 FoW so you could pitch it to something later when it sucked. Yeah, I know it can be used on the tail end of a counterwar, but with Keeper's limited number of counters you don't always have that option.

Having that one extra UU counter has been such a huge help to me in so many games. I realize it isn't for everyone, but that card is going to stay unless a better counter (wisedrafter's will? I'm sure it will be weakened 1,000% by the time it sees print) is printed.


By Mako Satou, Rose among the thorns (Mako) on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 10:34 am:

Matt,

Why are you not playing Tolarian Academy? Tolarian Academy makes for big Braingeyser's and Strokes of Genius and provides alot of mana for Yawgmoth's Win. I can not see why you do not run it. Sure it is no good if you don't have an artifact in play but you have enough of those that that rarely happens unless your opponent has Gorilla Shaman.

Why do you play Impulse over Vampiric Tutor?
That just doesn't make sense.

I'm trying to fit in a Swords to Plowshares again but it just does not fit. I put in Fire and Ice and its very good being able to Merchant Scroll for it is nice. The Swords to Plowshares slot became Fire / Ice for me.

Helm,

Planar Portal just costs too much mana. 6 mana to cast and 6 mana to use so you break even on cards a total of 12. I am trying out Tome again and I find that it costs too much mana for what it does. Its probably getting removed for a Swords to Plowshares.

I don't play it but I would play Undiscovered Paradise before I played Dromar's Cavern because Undiscovered Paradise produces any color mana and as a result green mana to cast Sylvan and Regrowth and thats what mana you need the most of usually. I really do not like Undiscovered Paradise or the Cavern bounce lands because they hurt your mana development. I tried them in type 2 I hate them.


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 10:41 am:

@Steve: yeah, if I played in almost any other envirionment I'd play StP over the basic counter in that slot. It sounds like a fine choice as long as you don't face a never ending stream of control/combo all day long.


By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 10:52 am:

1) Planar Portal is UNPLAYABLE in T1. It has synergy with one thing: losing.

2) Brainstorm would make me laugh at Matt even more than Impulse does. For SHAAAAAAAME!!

3) Tolarian Academy taps for 0 a lot of the time, and doesn't produce off-color mana.

4) Teferi's Response is the most fun card in the world.

5) Dromar's Cavern doesn't untap under B2B.

6) Who cuts Time Walk? Really.

7) I love Sylvan Library, but I'm starting to miss Jayemdae Tome a lot. I do board Scrying Glass though.


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 10:57 am:

2) ur mom
4) not when you draw it after the sinkhole
6) uh...Exeter?
7) STAB YOUR EYES!


By Freddie Williams II (Freddie) on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 11:28 am:

Counterspell sucks! The only time I would play a counter in keeper is if I had an asian foiled beta counter with misprinted casting cost of GR, and misprinted art of morphling on it...

It would then have enough style to fill a slot in my keeper.

for me its STP!

And i love tome as well, Matt you will not think that tome is to slow IF your keeper opponent resolves it early in the game, and works it the whole freaking game... Drawing 2 cards per your 1, is pretty good. even if you resolve sylvan, you will be hard pressed to make up for the card deifacit (msp?).

Tome works contol matchups...

That is all for now.

-Freddie


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 12:41 pm:

I play with a DCI promo counter so it has plenty of style.

Tome is nie in the mirror match, but still very expensive and diffcult to cast and defend. Sylvan, which replaced Tome for me some years ago, is just so much easier to slip through counters. I'm not saying Tome is bad, but it is slow as J.P.'s mom in the antartic. I think the envirionment has sped up to the point were it's really borderline playable. If I was going to play Tome, I'd likely try Whispers of the Muse first, since it can be cycled away early on if I'm being swarmed, pitched to FoW, and doesn't require protection from disenchants, etc. Of course Tome can't be countered once it's out, but Whispers can also be used as EOT bait. Just a thought.


By Stephen Michael Menendian (Smmenen) on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 01:29 pm:

Matt, I probably haven't made this clear, but when you first posted Fire/Ice in your keeper last year I was skeptical. But when I played with it in Novermber/December, I realized, that card was incredible.

So props for making a great call.

Steve


By CF (Cf) on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 02:10 pm:

Vampiric has bad interaction with Sylvan? Shuffling + Sylvan = GOOD dammit. If you want a blue Vampiric, play Lim-Dul's Vault.

A lone Duress does as much good in Keeper as a lone counterspell - and makes as much sense.

--
Chris


By Gizzard (Gizzard) on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 03:17 pm:

My current decklist differs from Matt:

-1 Regrow -1 Sylvan -1 Emerald -1 Zorb -1 Geyser
+2 Impulse +1 Mana Vault +1 Tormods Crypt +1 StP

With that in mind:

>I got a friend coming over today for
>playtesting, so Ill just make him run me through
>the gambit with me using Impulse over vamp.

The thing I find with Impulse (when playing against another Keeper or 8-10 counter control deck) is that I am able to consistently upgrade my hand by Impulsing for another Mana Drain, an extra land, a Wasteland, whatever I need at the moment. My card quality is higher. Someone says, "I'd rather play more broken cards", but I say "I'd rather look at 4 of my best broken cards rather than play with a couple more almost broken cards which I might never see."

>I can not see why you do not run [tolarian].
>Sure it is no good if you don't have an artifact
>in play but you have enough of those that that
>rarely happens unless your opponent has Gorilla
>Shaman.

Certainly if you expect Shaman you really have to consider whether the Academy is good. I expect Shaman in my metagame, sometimes lots of them depending on how popular Sligh is at the moment. And, I think Matts arguments about consistency are right on. There are only 6 0cc artifacts and 2 1cc's in my deck and I hate being forced to make first turn plays like "Academy-Lotus-Go."

>Sorry to yell, but Planar Portal, while fun as
>all hell and broken in multiplayer, is not a
>type I card. It (12 mana to get ONE card)
>certainly isn't good against combo decks that
>kill you in 2-4 turns (Academy, 21, ReapLace,

I cant believe I am defending Planar Portal again. :-) People are definitely giving this card the short end of the stick; you dont draw one card, you tutor for one card at instant speed. If that isn't a game breaker, I dont know what is. Sure, its not good against aggro or certain fast combos, but in these cases cards like Braingeyser and Jayemdae Tome are too slow too. Doesnt mean they suck, it just means that they may have to spend some time in your sideboard, depending on your metagame.

The problem I have with it is that I can win a game in 4 turns if I force through a Morphling, and it will probably take me twice as long if I force through a Planar Portal. So why not play a 3rd Morphling instead? Its not that the Portal sucks, its that there are just better things available. That and you pretty much have to play the Tolarian to power it.

>A lone Duress does as much good in Keeper as a
>lone counterspell - and makes as much sense.

I kinda like the one counterspell in my deck. I should really think about playing a Mishra or two to dump spare Mana Drain mana into, but as things go I take burn quite often. Mana Drain is great if you've got something to feed it to, but there are only about 5 things in these decks that require a lot of sorcery mana (Stroke, Mindtwist, Morphling, Will, D-Blow etc.) So the vanilla Counter provides an alternative if you arent planning on making a "big play" next turn as well as being one more hard Counter.


By Cuandoman (Cuando) on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 03:27 pm:

On the sublect of vamp vs impulse:

it really depends on your metagame, aggro would call for vamp so you can get abyss/COP and not get blasted. control and combo... impulse.

Teferi's Response is savage:

"I'll attack with Pup."
"I'll activate Factory."
"Bolt."
"Mise! Teferi's Response!" I draw my 2.
"Fuck."
"Block and pump. Ya done now?"


By Begbie (Begbie) on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 03:32 pm:

You might want to think about JP's tech - Whispers of the Muse. It never really sucks to draw Whispers.

1) Early game, you can burn it to find a crucial second blue land faster or pitch it to Force of Will.

2) Late game, it becomes another end of turn source of card advantage. You can also do stuff like buy it back from a Yawgmoth's Will if you have a ton of mana left over.

It's all pretty janky, but so is 1 Impulse.

Begbie


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 05:05 pm:

I already considered Whispers since, afterall, I recommended it to J.P.! However, it is a cycling Tome, not a digger/tutor which is what I'm in the market for.

I have to disagree strongly with CF, a lone Counterspell is absolultely NOT the same as a lone Duress. A lone card will likely never be seen early game. Since most decks that aren't control will spend a good part of the game topdecking drawing Duress after the first two or three turns is terrible. However Counterspell, since it is reactive, is good as soon as you have UU and forever after. It's also BLUE. If you notice I have 21 blue cards in my deck. I almost never, ever find myself not having a suitable card to pitch to a FoW/Mis-D.

Also, I tried Lim Dul's Vault on the advice of Will the Walking Dude. It was a great idea (I'm not going to give you all the whole stakc of reasons we came up with why it could be a better Vamp), but terrible in practice. When I'm talking about Sylvan and Vamp having terrible interaction I obviously mean the life loss (which equals one less card every two games). If shuffling effect + sylvan automatically equalled GOOD then you must just love Planar Portal in Keeper. BtW you play one Brainstorm in your control deck so you are not allowed to laugh at my one Impulse. It's foil damnit!

--Matt

P.S. CF, if you haven't heard: at the end of this month for you lucky Europeans (I have to wait till May) Ayreon's spinnoff band Star One releases "Space Metal". This is going to be THE SHIT. Damien Wilson from Threshold and Russel Allen from Symphony X are among the contributing vocalists.


By CF (Cf) on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 05:43 pm:

Matt: And Dan Swanö has collaborated with Arjen as well, but that's on the new Ayreon I think. You should check out Arcturus' latest, "The Sham Mirrors".

However: Duress in the early game is great. Duress in topdeck mode is ass. Duress at the start of a counterwar is GREAT. Basically I am saying that against aggro, you don't need another counterspell, since you'll want an answer (abyss) against them instead. Against combo, an early counterspell is not necessarily better than an early Duress (and the late game against combo you'll win either way). Against control-- well, Duress is THE best counterbait and great for forcing out key spells. It's -much- better than counterspell here, since with counterspell you have to cast the spell first. With Duress, you may save that spell until later if your opponent seems like winning the counterwar). I have an additional reason for playing Duress though - Holistic Wisdom ratio.

I briefly tried Lim Dul's vault myself, but instead of the Mystical (since I sometimes want to search for enchantments). I didn't feel it improved anything.

Your Impulse is foil. My Brainstorm is IA signed, so I will continue laughing :oP. Serioulsy, the brainstorm synergies are winning me games, but I'd of course -never- play it if it weren't for the Oaths. It's been a long time since I dwelled with Keeper now though, since I'm kicking so much ass with mask.

--
Chris


By Milton (Milton) on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 09:40 pm:

Do you really have enough anti-creature cards to stabalize early against agro? Or, do you rely heavily on your sideboard? Also, how do you sideboard with your deck? Your deck almost seems too tight to fit in three or four cards from the board. Also, you may want to re-think the Tome.

By the way, you are right to include a lone Counterspell. Mana Leak is horrible in Keeper. It sucks to be holding that lone Mana Leak when your opponent casts a late game Yag. Will. Force of Will is enough to counter really early threats. Mana Leak is just bad. I tried Response too and couldn't get it to work for me.

Also, do you really need Regrowth? I ditched it a few months ago and I haven't missed it at all.


By CooberP, the Aura Fracturer of B2Bs (Cooberp) on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 09:49 pm:

If you haven't missed Regrowth, you don't know how to play Keeper.


By Spevack (Spevack) on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 09:58 pm:

Matt, why not just cut the Impulse for StP?


By CooberP, the Aura Fracturer of B2Bs (Cooberp) on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 10:34 pm:

Probably because it isn't blue.


By AndyT (Andyt) on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 11:17 pm:

I agree with CF in running Lim-Dul's Vault. I will probably drop my Vamp tutor in place of a second copy, maybe.

I also use Holistic Wisdom in my deck and am very pleased with it. Always glad to draw it, in spite of the casting cost.


By Anxiety (Anxiety) on Thursday, April 18, 2002 - 12:35 am:

I've been sick for three days and have taken time off work. I am half in a delirium right now, so if this comes out funny you'll know why :)


If you are going to run a Counterspell anyways, due to its verstility and ability to counter anything counterable, and the UU cc is not that bid of a deal when combined with other cards, why not run a copy of Forbid? Seems like one Forbid might be more valuable than one Counterspell.

-Anxiety


By CooberP, the Aura Fracturer of B2Bs (Cooberp) on Thursday, April 18, 2002 - 02:01 am:

Seems like an expensive card-disadvantage counter doesn't belong in Type One. :)


By Dozer (Dozer) on Thursday, April 18, 2002 - 11:54 am:

I think that your StP slot is the Counterspell. And since you can't drop the 10th counter due to metagame considerations, StP seems to have no room in your deck unless you give up the fourth manipulation slot or play 61 cards.

I also don't like that lone Impulse, and I still prefer Vampiric. Maybe Prophetic Bolt, if it weren't five mana...

FYI, my list differs whole 5 cards from yours:
+ Vampiric Tutor (- Impulse)
+ StP (- Counterspell)
+ Powder Keg (- Shaman)
+ Scrying Glass (- Time Walk; I don't have one)
+ Mishra's Factory (- Volcanic Island; gimp land #2)

Dozer


By Robb Williams (Robb) on Thursday, April 18, 2002 - 06:16 pm:

I've been running "The Vault" for a while now instead of Vamp and I still like it. You will generally will find an answer without paying any life and if you do have to pay a life or two you are still better off than vamp since you also get to set up the next four draws. Sure they could all be land but at least you will see it coming.

Academy is too situational. I have cut it as well and for the same reasons that it often taps for 0 mana.

Impulse, Matt? Hmmm. I've never actually seen that bit o' tech. Guess it is 'cause we haven't played in a while.

The lone counterspell is as good a call as any. In my deck I have a second misdirection (because both are foil mainly) since I always have extra blue in my hand no matter how many are in my deck. Keeper runs best, IMO, with 10 counters so why not a vanilla one. In some games too it is better than mana drain especially those games vs aggro when you mana drain something then burn for 2 next turn. A counter would have been better then.

Teferi's Response?? I have to agree, nice when it works otherwise it is force-food. Only really good when you have mishra's.

I'll join the crowd and post my decklist and, God knows, my secret tech that gets ragged on. But work calls it will have to be later.
Robb


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Thursday, April 18, 2002 - 06:48 pm:

If Prophetic bolt were one, ONE less freakin' mana I would SO use it in my deck. I love that card.

Forbid? I used it a long, long time ago (like pre-saga days). It's not a bad idea to ditch dead cards to buy it back, but the one extra mana is a killer in the early and mid game. I think the envirionment has sped up too much for it. It's passable in some mono-U ophidian decks that have billions of other counters to use early on.

The basic Counterspell isn't up for debate. It's served me really well. I don't want a card that isn't blue in that slot. My deck runs very efficiently, and the 21 blue card count is a major reason why. The only thing I would ever, ever consider taking it out for is an StP.

Cooberp, no, Milton knows what he's talking about. Regrowth isn't essential to the deck, and I will board it out once in awhile when I'm REALLY pressed for space. However, I still intend to play with it.

However, if I wanted to play a new Keeper deck (but still Keeper) my next choice in line would be 4 colors using no green whatsoever. I'd dich the Emerald from the deck and play 2 Misrha's Factories in the mana base, and a Response where my Sylvan is now (and maybe StP where my Regrowth presently or Shaman number two...something).

Milton, I know, my deck _is_ slightly light on removal, but I very rarely lose to aggro, even game one. I do tend to pull off a lot more bullshit than I probably deserve to against decks like Stompy and Suicide, but overall I think the deck is fairly solid against aggro. I'm just one StP away from feeling all warm and safe.

Actually I might just make the Impulse StP again. I really wanted a bluecard and I like to keep my maindeck free of extra dead weight, but I've been looking atthe NG metagame and since Ophidians are in mono-U, legend purple silliness maindecks 4 miners, and Mishra's Factories are once again in vouge at almost all of NG's Keepers they are really only dead against one or two other decks. Well, we'll see--Impulse HAS been good to me and I DO think the deck wants that 4th piece of manipulation.

--Matt


By PsychoCid (Cid) on Thursday, April 18, 2002 - 07:25 pm:

I think most of us agree that 9 counters is the minimum, now. I am a fan of running a tenth, but I think that the best candidate for that slot (counter or otherwise) is purely dependant on the metagame. The three most popular choices, in no particular order, are MisD, Cspell, and StP. Respectively, these should be for combo and/or control, random, and aggro-heavy fields. If the field is really combo/control heavy, even though MisD pretty much took its spot, I suppose it might be okay to run a maindeck REB, again.

The tutor/draw slot is somewhere between metagame and personal choice. Use the process of elimination to determine which is optimal, and then go with what works for you. Vamp is probably still the standard, but, in a control heavy field, Whispers can be really nice (def. better than Tome, I think). At the moment, I'm running Vault, simply because I want both the tutor-like effect and the ability to pitch it.


By Tracer Bullet, Voice of Reason (Tracer) on Thursday, April 18, 2002 - 10:50 pm:

I personally prefer Response in that 10th slot, but then again, we have a fair amount of LD running around my metagame.


By Stephen Michael Menendian (Smmenen) on Friday, April 19, 2002 - 01:47 am:

I really think cutting the vampiric is problematic in aggro match-ups. Fetching abyss is prioirity numumer uno and restricting in any way the capacity to do that seems unwise. Additionally, your concern about being removal light might be better addressed by the addition of Vamp to get your answer.

While there seems to be a bandwagen effect. I have not heard anything resembling a persuasive and systematic argument against Vamp. That isn't to say that I think it categorically must be in Keeper - I just want to hear you guys better articulate why it isn't needed.

Steve


By Gzeiger (Gzeiger) on Friday, April 19, 2002 - 01:52 am:

I honestly think it would still deserve a slot in the sideboard (I'm not cutting it from the main). Where Matt is playing, the card disadvantage vs other control decks is intolerable. That's the real argument. A topdeck tutor is too disadvantageous against Keeper. There was a discussion at one point about many players even boarding out Mysticl Tutor in control matchups.

So, if control is what you expect to face all day, don't play it (although the ability to find Library makes it appealing still). Control is not what I expect to see very often, so I'm keeping it in.


By Stephen Michael Menendian (Smmenen) on Friday, April 19, 2002 - 02:01 am:

Gzeiger, I could udnerstand that viewpoint if it weren't for the fact that I seem to recall and sense a general interest in aggro decks at NG in part evidenced by the addition of STP mainboard again.

But just becuase I understand the viewpoint, doesn't mean I think vamp should be cut. Without having given it much thought, I think I would probably cut the mystical before the vamp. The mystical is a full tutor away from getting abyss while vamp is right there. Both are card disadvantagious but one reveals no information. Both are good with sylvan to the extent that they shuffle your library. But who knows. Nonetheless, I find the whole discussion fascinating.

Steve


By CooberP, the Aura Fracturer of B2Bs (Cooberp) on Friday, April 19, 2002 - 03:01 am:

Vamp's life loss makes it bad company with Sylvan, but most importantly it's not blue.


By FeverDog (Feverdog) on Friday, April 19, 2002 - 03:55 am:

I think its very funny that Matt would consider playing 4 color Keeper withouth GREEN. I mean, if theres no Sylvan than is it really keeper?? But really, i prefer the stability of 3 colors, which is why i like OSE better :P


By CF (Cf) on Friday, April 19, 2002 - 04:33 am:

Keeper without Green? Perish the thought!

--
Chris

PS: That was a DAMN good pun, if I may say so myself.


By Robb Williams (Robb) on Friday, April 19, 2002 - 08:10 am:

Here is my latest version. It really stays the same except for the sideboard which I change around frequently. Most stuff is pretty standard except for the removal of the mox ruby for a 4th waste (too many factories around now), Lim Dul's Vault, and the maindeck keg.
Main Deck:

4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection

2 Morphling

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Braingeyser
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll

1 Lim Dul's Vault

1 Vamp Tutor
1 Abyss
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Mind Twist
1 Demonic Tutor

1 Sylvan Library
1 Regrowth

1 Powder Keg
1 Zuran Orb

1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Balance
1 Dismantling Blow

1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
4 Moxen (no ruby)

39 spells

4 City of Brass
4 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
2 Tropical Islands
1 Underground River
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Library of Alexandra
1 Strip Mine
4 Wastelands

22 lands

61 total

Side Board
Duress – 4
Perish - 1
Aura Fracture - 1
COP Red - 2
Caltrops - 2
Powder Keg - 1
Nether Spirit - 1
Scrying Glass - 1
COP Black - 1
Ensnaring Bridge - 1


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Friday, April 19, 2002 - 08:27 am:

TWO caltrops? Day-um...you must really want to beat Kaplan.

I'm suprised you don't run 2 Mishra's yourself (over the River and 5th Strip)--I'd do it if I went 4 colors.

It'll be annoying in the mirror because you'll have 3 uncounterable critters post SB.


By Robb Williams (Robb) on Friday, April 19, 2002 - 11:18 am:

Actually, although caltrops were my secret tech Eric has suggested two. The thinking is, and this from Vinny too, that post sideboard sligh has gotten rid of most of its burn and only has scroll and critters plus bolts so once you destroy the critter threat you are almost in the win bracket. Normally I use enlightened tutor in its place but I really will be tutoring for the caltrops (maybe Keg or cop) in most cases so...
I tend to rag on factories but secretly want to play them. I just think I have anadvantage by not doing so since many people do play them. It allows me the extra blue/black and an extre waste (total or 5) to potentially screw my opponent in the mirror in addition to killing factories.
I'm not sure nether spirit will stay now since the surprise is lost. It was worth watching my opponent (Eric in this case) as I dropped it and swung for 2 for 10 turns. Now all of you will keep plow in the deck so maybe I'll have to put something new in HEHEHEHEHE. But it is nice and foily so I really want to keep him...
Are you going to go for mishra's for the Type !? I wouild almost consider it but I doubt it.


By Glenchuy (Glenchuy) on Friday, April 26, 2002 - 10:21 am:

teferi's response's place in keeper-
is it just me, or does everyone who use teferi's response actually get response the turn after they need it the most? i used to maindeck response, but then out of the gazillion games i playtested with response, i usually drew the card the turn after my library was stripped, wasted, etc. do you actually tutor for it if you are expecting it?


By Matt D'Avanzo, Paragon of Vintage (Matt) on Friday, April 26, 2002 - 01:53 pm:

That was my experience, thus I don't run it. That card HATES me. If I ran Factories I would, since those lands tend to meet bolts, StP, and other things.

If you have a LoA (for example) out and active you most certainly do tutor for it.


By The Bahoo (Ben) on Friday, April 26, 2002 - 02:47 pm:

The nice thing about LoA, you can tutor for the response on the fly.

Opponent: Wasteland your LoA

You: Tap to draw a card, in response, mystical or vampiric tutor, oh look, I drew a teferi's response!

I run the response maindeck although I generally don't use factories. It's rarely ever a dead card per say, due to it's pitchability. I probably pitch it to FoW at least 2-3 times more than I use it, but when you do get to use it, it's huge. Of course, as with anything else, it's eats a card spot in a deck that is already out of room.


By Glenchuy (Glenchuy) on Friday, April 26, 2002 - 09:40 pm:

By Matt D'Avanzo, Paragon of Vintage (Matt) on Friday, April 26, 2002 - 01:53 pm:
That was my experience, thus I don't run it. That card HATES me. If I ran Factories I would, since those lands tend to meet bolts, StP, and other things.

If you have a LoA (for example) out and active you most certainly do tutor for it.

----
but if you had a tutor- wouldn't you have tutored for something better? like mind twist or ancestral?


By Matt D'Avanzo, Paragon of Vintage (Matt) on Saturday, April 27, 2002 - 02:23 am:

In a word: No. What could be better than an active LoA that can't be killed? Certainly not tutoring for something I'll have to fight a counterwar over that might deplete my hand.


By Matt D'Avanzo, Paragon of Vintage (Matt) on Saturday, April 27, 2002 - 02:23 am:

Note that I'm talking about the control mirror. Against aggro you may need to find Abyss or something.


By Glenchuy (Glenchuy) on Saturday, April 27, 2002 - 09:16 am:

but if you know that the opponent packs 1 strip, 3 waste, but don't know if he had a waste or strip in hand.

assume this scenario in mirror or BSB-

first turn drop library, your opponent does not strip. next turn, you play land. opponent plays another land (still no strip waste)

opponent ends turn, you draw from library, do you cast mystical and fetch response, anticipating a strip/waste the next few turns, or do you sit and wait since the library is already getting you free cards.

if you fetch response and something good happens early (like a mana drained FoW) wouldn't it be better if you had waited and fetched twist?

then if you hadn't fetched response, then next turn your opponent topdecks waste, wouldn't you have kicked yourself for not tutoring for response?

i am not arguing about the usefulness of response here, i am just asking for a few pointers here to know if i can still try using response maindeck-

btw, i have no factories maindeck. and 1 strip, 3 wastes are standard here. and yeah, my luck with everything else is phenominal- i have actually drawn 3 moxen, orb, academy, balance and i think it was jayemdae or FoF once against sligh, that was a funny incident. but my luck with response sucks, so i pretty much have to tutor for it.

so assuming mirror, or BSB, i tutor for response right? and would you tutor from mystical, or would you use scroll and demonic?

also since i am new at posting here, i can't seem to find the topic about the arguments about vampiric- as i still run it, could you kindly explain in a few words why you cut it maindeck, or direct me to the thread where it is talked about?


By The Bahoo (Ben) on Saturday, April 27, 2002 - 09:57 am:


Quote:

opponent ends turn, you draw from library, do you cast mystical and fetch response, anticipating a strip/waste the next few turns, or do you sit and wait since the library is already getting you free cards.

if you fetch response and something good happens early (like a mana drained FoW) wouldn't it be better if you had waited and fetched twist?

then if you hadn't fetched response, then next turn your opponent topdecks waste, wouldn't you have kicked yourself for not tutoring for response?




Remember, with a mystical or vampiric tutor and an active library, you can fetch response WHEN they actually use the waste or strip.

So if your opponent throws down his waste and sacs it, just tap the library, tutor in response and cast teferi's. If instead he gives you a big mana drain target, just go get your mindtwist instead. In essence, you can wait and fetch what you need.


By Glenchuy (Glenchuy) on Saturday, April 27, 2002 - 10:59 am:

By The Bahoo (Ben) on Saturday, April 27, 2002 - 09:57 am:
Remember, with a mystical or vampiric tutor and an active library, you can fetch response WHEN they actually use the waste or strip.

So if your opponent throws down his waste and sacs it, just tap the library, tutor in response and cast teferi's. If instead he gives you a big mana drain target, just go get your mindtwist instead. In essence, you can wait and fetch what you need.

oh, i didn't know that, guess something learned everyday eh? darn, makes me feel like a scrub, btw, how do you make the quote thingies to appear?


By Matt D'Avanzo, Paragon of Vintage (Matt) on Sunday, April 28, 2002 - 01:54 am:

>>>if you fetch response and something good happens early (like a mana drained FoW) wouldn't it be better if you had waited and fetched twist?

Thatwon't happen, because if I have an active LoA chances are I won't cast a damn thing. ESPECIALLY if I have Response in hand. Draw, draw, draw my way to victory.


By Matt D'Avanzo, Paragon of Vintage (Matt) on Friday, June 07, 2002 - 10:15 am:

The Impulse is offically Merchant Scroll #2 until something better comes along.


By Matt D'Avanzo, Paragon of Vintage (Matt) on Friday, June 07, 2002 - 11:16 am:

The exact decklist:

2 Morphling
1 Misdrection
1 Counterspell
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Timewalk
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Balance
1 Regrowth
1 Sylvan Library
1 Mindtwist
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Braingeyser
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Zuran Orb
1 Fire/Ice
1 Diabolic Edict
1 The Abyss
1 Dismantling Dblow
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
2 Merchant Scroll

5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Library
1 Strip Mine
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 City
4 Sea
3-4 Tundra (shifts depending on the minimal SB adjustments)
3-4 Volcanic (ditto)
3 Wasteland

If I were playing in a creature heavy environment would be to make StP maindeck over Counterspell and a Chainer’s Edict over Diabolic Edict. Thus the loss of the Counterspell would be somewhat offset by the addition of another spell they may have to counter to win. Similarly the loss of Edict’s instant speed (which is mainly good because it makes the card blow less against aggro since it can be cast in resp to an effect like Giant Growth) by giving you another way to nail a critter at instant speed. This is something Azhrei and I discussed in IM when the spoiler list came out.


By Mako Satou, Rose among the thorns (Mako) on Friday, June 07, 2002 - 01:14 pm:

I have been trying to fit an Swords to Plowshares maindeck as well. Have not found space for it.

I disagree with 2 Merchant Scrolls it is a Sorcery and you have enough ways to get Ancestral.

Diabolic Edict is strictly better then Chainer's because of the instant speed it can kill a creatureland, a Chimaric Idol etc. The 2 Teferi's Response after board of Mikey P. has changed my opinion on that and I play alot of agressive decks. Taping 7 is bad unless you have 9 on the table.


By Milton (Milton) on Friday, June 07, 2002 - 04:39 pm:

What is your typical sideboard, Matt. How would you sideboard look for an unknown metagame. I know that you would have more board control in an unknown metagame, but what, using this deck, would you pack in the board if you were going to Gen Con, for example.


By CrazyCarlWinter (Carlw) on Saturday, June 08, 2002 - 08:12 pm:

Matt- Why did you cut Impulse? I played with it today and it was fantastic whenever I cast it.

Carl


By Steve O'Connell, King of Metaphors (Zherbus) on Saturday, June 08, 2002 - 08:19 pm:

I could never bring myself to put scroll #2. However, I also play a lot of aggro when I play keeper so vamp and swords are still maindeck.

I think if Cunning wish fetched sorceries, things may be different...you could run deep anal, pyroclasm, twister, etc.

Im also curious as to your SB, as mine needs revamping.


By Razor (Razor) on Saturday, June 08, 2002 - 08:53 pm:

Mako, I'm flattered that you have learned your "Chimeric" Idol (Jade Statue) lesson.

Razor

:)


By OldSchool (Oldschool) on Friday, June 14, 2002 - 11:51 pm:

Sorry to post this ebcause its almost not important but
my decklist is the exact same except i have vamp instead of impulse and swords instead of zorb. And im really proud of myself :)


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