Then see if the mana will handle it, and the remaining sideboard slots are enough.
Doesn't take a rocket scientist.
Aggro decks will never, ever win a game against me again.
Burning Desire? I will now be casting Yawgmoth's Will multiple times a game with Burning Desire. So I can blow one early for Balance and later for insane card advantage. I will also SB one Perish, Pyroclasm, and some other randoms to make sure aggro will never, ever win a game again. Good job! Oh yeah....Time Twister goes into my SB now for sure.
The Green desire, if it has an appropriate cc, will also be tested in the place of Gorilla Shaman in my maindeck since depending on the situation it can become Shaman, Miner, Masticore, or Morphling (hey, I don't even need to run 2 Morph now! WHOOPIE!). I can also fetch a Dustbowl or Wasteland.
The blue desire is also obviously playable, but not nearly as good as the red. Just the fact that it's blue though makes it more attractive.
Why the white one sucks so bladly in a set that's supposed to make white good is beyond me.
Okay, I just made up a sample list of Keeper wiht the green wish replacing shaman, the red one replacing vamp, 1 Morphling moved to the SB for an open slot (StP or maindeck REB depending on your area I think), and an altered mana base. It looks HOT. It might not work out, but I have to say things...
1) I haven't been this exited about a new set since Urza's.
2) Ring of Maruf was one of my all-time favorite cards (and the first card I bought with store crdit when I won my first tourney ever at NG) so I love this new mechanic.
3) It's sweet to see card printed that help Keeper that don't do anything for mono-U
4) I LOVE BEING A KEEPER PLAYER!
Any chance of posting links or card descriptions so we know WTF you are talking about?
You know that in competitive (i.e. REAL Magic), you're not allowed to fetch anything that isn't in your sideboard or removed from the game, right?
Also, when butchering a hapless dinosaur of a deck like Keeper with sixteen counters, four Morphs, and four B2B, mono blue needs no help.
Eh. Maybe I'm being harsh, but anything that even remotely smacks of "Keeper snobbery" just gets my goat.
I've said it before and I'll said it again, it's not the best deck because it's the best deck, it's the "best deck" because it's the deck that the majority of the people with full Power choose to play. The tail wags the dog here, in other words.
Nothing personal.
Quote:You know that in competitive (i.e. REAL Magic), you're not allowed to fetch anything that isn't in your sideboard or removed from the game, right?
Yeah, you're right about that, but I still reserve the right to take as many cheap shots at Keeper as the "Keeper Krew" does at monoblue. Fair is fair.
Hmm, what about the white wish for Keeper?
Let´s see what we can get:
Against Sligh: CoP Red
Against Suicide: Cop Black
Against Stompy and Beatdown in General: Powder Keg
Against any Beatdown: Oath of Druids (stretching things a little here, but this may be actually good when the Shaman is replaced with the green wish)
Against Keeper and Control in General: Scrying Glass
Against Combo: Arcane Laboratory
Against decks with B2B main: Aura Fracture
Against LD: Sacred Ground
Against nasty Enchantments or Artfacts you did not think of: Seal of Cleansing
The only problem is that the sideboard can only have 15 cards, and you have to account for the other wishes as well.
Actually the least useful wish is probably the blue one, and I am hard pressed to find a sorcery to get with the red one against control. There are good sorceries, but you play them maindeck already. Maybe Duress, though.
Quote:Yeah, you're right about that, but I still reserve the right to take as many cheap shots at Keeper as the "Keeper Krew" does at monoblue. Fair is fair.
The white wish cost WW3 so not a chance in hell.
Andreas: The sideboard adjustments were the first thing I thought of when I saw the wishes (well, after Maruf).
White is the best in terms of fetching hosers, but the casting cost makes it unplayable.
Green is the best at fetching permanent hosers... just find creatures that host broad swaths.
The first rule of Magic debate is and should be: The first one to take trash talking about decks to a personal level instantly loses the debate and should seriously rethink their priorities in life.
EDIT: Didn't see your deletions, Rakso. Good call.
Quote:The first rule of Magic debate is and should be: The first one to take trash talking about decks to a personal level instantly loses the debate and should seriously rethink their priorities in life.
@Matt: Will you post your preliminary thoughts of a new Keeper with the wishes? I'm sure we'd all be interested to see what you have in mind.
Spevack, don't be so lazy! Matt just drew you a picture. Photocopy it or something.
*sheesh*
Razor
8^)
It's been on every Keeper player's mind. Just think about the red or green (or black if you have the balls) and every standard sideboard creature in the Keeper Arsenal.
Then see if the mana will handle it, and the remaining sideboard slots are enough.
Doesn't take a rocket scientist.
Acting on Razor and Rakso's advice, here's one possibility for your collective consideration.
This is basically a summary of Matt's ideas.
// MAIN DECK
// Blue (18)
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Counterspell
1 Morphling
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Braingeyser
1 Misdirection
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
// Black (5)
1 The Abyss
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Mind Twist
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Edict
// White (3)
1 Balance
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Dismantling Blow
// Green (3)
1 Regrowth
1 Sylvan Library
1 Green Wish -----> Cut Gorilla Shaman
// Red (1)
1 Red Wish -----> Cut Vamp. Tutor
// Multi-Colored (1)
1 Fire/Ice
// Artifact (8)
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Sol Ring
1 Zuran Orb
// Land (21)
4 City of Brass
4 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland, 1 Tropical Island, 1 Paradise
OR
4 Wasteland, 1 Tropical Island
// SIDEBOARD
// White (7)
2 Circle of Protection: Red
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Moat
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Aura Fracture
// Red (6)
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Dwarven Miner
1 Pyroclasm
// Blue (2)
1 Morphling
1 Timetwister
There. Now that I've been called lazy, I'm looking forward to having the decklist be called stupid. Rip away, guys. :-)
Sorry, i only knew the casting cost of the red wish, since I have not had access to the spoiler yet. If anyone could post a link (or at least the casting costs for the other wishes) I would be grateful.
So of course I was assuming that all the wishes are evenly costed. In light of its actual casting cost the white wish is clearly no longer up for discussion. :-(
Still the question remains: what should the red wish fetch against control? And the green one against aggro? Morphling, or are there better ideas?
You know, I read over what I originally posted up there and anyone that somehow gets a vicious attack at all mono-U players out of it, is (for lack of a better term) a stupid prick.
Green-wish fetches you Masticore which you will use to mow down their horde.
The red isn't so hot against control. I guess it's either a Duress or 2nd Yawgwill if you resolve a small one early. Perhaps a single Call of the Herd in the SB (JP's idea)?
I've been thinking about it, and maybe only the green one will make the cut or maybe the green and the blue. However, this is all speculative as no one has tested it yet. However, I REALLY like the idea of SBing shaman and Morph #2, then MDing the green with. It means (providing it doens't wind up sucking for reasons yet undetermined) I get the slot for my maindeck StP! FINALLY!
---Matt
I don't like the idea of playing without a Shaman, though.
You'd have to go into a tutor chain to get Shaman?
@Matt: Including the green wish of course means you have to adjust your mana base for the heavier green component...
@Matt: Also I am not convinced of the blue wish. For one it is relatively expensive at U2 (I found a spoiler now) and there is not that much to get as all the good instants are in the maindeck already. All I could think of is REB, another StP, another Edict or an additional Counterspell/Misdirection.
On the plus side the blue wish is an instant itself. :-)
please please give the link to the spoiler, because when I've only been up for 4 minutes, its hard to think of where it could be.
just go to mtgnews.com - > forumns - > rumor mill.
Its plastered all over there like runny turd.
I love both these cards, but I too will have a hard time letting go of Shaman.
Keeper, with its 5 colors can use that new will nicely. This card seriously excites me more than midget porn.
Even against the mono colored decks, you can use sligh's bolts to kill thier pups. You can hymn a mono black player, or sink a land. Against blue, with its instant speed, you can even counter something, or draw some cards.
In a mirror, this card is simply god. It makes thier yawgmoths will suck too.
All I have to say is, its about damn time.
I am just wondering though, with geyser being basically a weaker FoF replacement, maybe this EOT card can sub FoF instead?
You DO realize it isn't a new Will. It says you may play their graveyard as if it's YOUR graveyard meaning the cards sit their looking stupid doing nothing until you cast a Yawgmoth's Will or Regrowth.
----------
And yes, this green wish, assuming it works out, will replace. Look, you haven't lost a shaman. You know have a card that says, pay G1: turns this card inot Gorilla Shaman, Dwarven Miner, Masticore, or Morphling. Considering Shaman is ass against 1/3 of the field that's pretty freaking good I'd say. ALSO considering you now only need one Morph opening a slot....
Christ, what more can you ask for?
I have the decklist ready, it still has exactly 20 blue cards and looks good. I mean, it's the most solid anti-aggro control deck I've played since Necro was legal and it doens't give up ANY ground to control. If anything it GAINS ground because against mono-U you won't have to draw a (typically) useless Gorilla Shaman and against Keeper you have the option of getting Miner or Morph if the situation calls for it.
Ring of Ma'ruf rulings:
Quote:Cannot acquire cards that are phased out or in an Oubliette or Tawnos's Coffin. Those cards are in the Phased Out zone and not in the Removed from Game zone. [D'Angelo 2001/04/16] See Rule G.27.
Cannot acquire the Ante cards. They are considered still "in the game" as are cards in the library and the graveyard. [bethmo 1994/05/01]
Can acquire cards which are removed from the game by other cards, such as Ice Cauldron, Elkin Bottle, Necropotence, etc. Such cards are in the "removed from game" zone (see Rule Z.8). [bethmo 1998/10/23]
Can acquire a creature which was removed from the game by the Disintegrate or Swords to Plowshares. [bethmo 1994/06/01]
While in a sub-game started by Shahrazad, you cannot take cards from the parent game. This "sub-game" is still part of the larger "game". [WotC Rules Team 1995/11/10]
You do need to show the card you acquire to your opponent. [Aahz 1996/06/13]
Does not allow you to look at face-down cards which are in the removed from game zone. [bethmo 1998/11/24] You can get them with the Ring, but you can't look at them.
In Duelist Convocation tournament play, it can only bring cards from your sideboard or ones that were removed from the game by a spell or ability. [bethmo 1995/05/01] In normal play, it can also be any card you own which is not in the game. [DeLaney 2000/03/17]
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but the floor rules say you can only have 1 of a restricted card per DECK. Does this mean that the SB can have more? I assume so. Fetching Academy or Library or Stripmine (why waste time with a Wasteland Matt?) or Will or Ancestral (instant speed) from your library seems pretty reasonable.
Ok, I misread the cards apparently.
So no, I didnt realize that about that red spell. I thought that card was a bit too good to be true. That green spell basically does butt sex to most established archtypes.
I'm wondering if now heretics might be tossed in the sb in certain areas now that everyone thinks Mask.dec is so good.
Another idea: With the blue wish in the main deck can you move the Dismantling Blow to the sideboard? An while you are at it make it a Disenchant?
Problem is, there are very few effective hosers that are instants.
You can use Mana Short against control, get the Chant in the Board (don't bother with Blow... get something else since you don't need the Cycling anymore... too bad you still need Aura Fracture), and maybe Hibernation.
The Blasts aren't efficient hosers individually.
Instants are usually spot removal, and the less flexible "types" usually have the strong hosers.
Interesting cards for sure. If you have a green wish SB, you can use the red wish to start a chain ending with a creature too.
I see potential in this card as well in SB of both aggro and control:
Seedtime -1G- Instant
Play seedtime only during your turn.
Take an extra turn after this one if an opponent played a blue spell this turn.
For reference, the wishes:
Burning Wish -1R- Sorcery
Choose a sorcery card you own from outside the game, reveal that card, and put it into your hand. Remove Burning Wish from the game.
Living Wish -1G- Sorcery
Choose a creature card or land card you own from outside the game, reveal that card, and put it into your hand. Remove Living Wish from the game.
Cunning Wish -2U- Instant
Choose an instant card you own from outside the game, reveal that card, and put it into your hand. Remove Cunning Wish from the game.
--
Chris
Quote:Seedtime -1G- Instant
Play seedtime only during your turn.
Take an extra turn after this one if an opponent played a blue spell this turn.
What about outside Keeper? Could any of these be as useful, or even a four-of in any other existing deck?
Also, my new title rocks. Thanks, Rakso!
Since I run a Keeper similar to Matt's (I believe only 2 cards different) my changes will probably be similar to his:
4 City of Brass
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
3 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Zuran Orb
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
1 Morphling
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Teferi's Response
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Braingeyser
1 The Abyss
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mind Twist
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Sylvan Library
1 Living Wish
1 Regrowth
1 Balance
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Burning Wish
1 Fire/Ice
SB:
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Aura Fracture
1 Shaman's Trance
1 Timetwister
1 Morphling
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Masticore
1 Dwarven Miner
1 Perish
1 Moat
Rakso: You can cast it in response to Mysical Tutor, Stroke, FoF... not just counterspells (it had been better before Jan 1st though). I was thinking about aggro decks with more mana available than stompy - but it is of course best in something that wants to attack with lots :o) The card DOES have potential. Read it.
--
Chris
Much much much more important than the red wish's value to keeper is the red wishes value to academy. 4 time spirals 4l!
Amos
5 actually
I think Amos just wanted to make it look cool
its only 4 if you board spiral
Imagine what Living Wish and Brainstorm can do for Oath decks.
If I have, let's say, wheel of fortune in my SB and I pull it with Burning Wish and then I play it, is wheel removed from play again or does it go to my graveyard?
it goes to the grave, since it doesn't say otherwise.
Sorry ;)
Thanks Sylvester, I really don't care where it goes, I just needed to clear out that ruling
Matt, rules note. Regrowth doesn't let you take advantage of that red "Will" either - you can only play the cards as if they were in your grave, not target them. It's intended only for Type 2 environments with a significant FLashback component.
I think there are a couple cards here that look good for Survival. Genesis joins Squee, recurring interesting creatures. Unfortunately the mana cost is potentially prohibitive, but I'm going to try one in my FEB deck. Ancestor's Chosen is also worth a look, as Sligh is hell.
Might it be worth boarding a Wasteland in Keeper if Living Wish is played?
lol..dust bowl, while we're at it?
Sincerely, why not jsut tutor for miner??
I'd board Dwarven Miner instead.
When I read about the wishes I thought about breaking the format rules and crazy stuff like playing ancestral, etc in other formats. Then I thought it sucked after being told how it would really work.
Now, after seeing how it can be used I actually like the wishes VERY much. Burning Wish and Living Wish are the two best cards in Judgement.
Burning Wish wishers:
Ring of Ma'ruf says it fetches from the RFG cards OR from outside the game.
Burning Wish fetches from outside the game.
RFG zone is IN the game.
It was worded that way so you can't use it to recycle Flashback cards, I suppose.
So no Yawgwill #2.
ABUSE!!!! I tell ya ABUSE!!!!! Somebody's gonna find someway to totally abuse these cards until a whole bunch of restrictions get zipped out by WotC
my 2 canadian cents ($0.015 US)
PeAcE
Not really. It's not worth running more than one of a certain tutor, because you can't really board a lot of cards.
So, maybe with the RFG rulings Burning Wish isnt as good as originally thought, even then its worth testing out to fetch sb cards against aggro. The green wish is just so cool i cant believe it, i hate to think of Keeper getting better but i think this will make a small improvement and i cant imagine ppl NOT running this as Matt suggested. Im happy i dont own a Keeper deck so i dont have to figure out all these sb configurations.
What if u play a Phyrexian Furnace vs ur self after u play the 'cool' cards this might be cheating or even if ur opp. tormod crypt. maby in a recregin deck use the dreams.
Rakso, are you sure about the rulings? My guess is that WOTC is going to let you get cards that are RFG. One reason is that in standard, getting cards from the RFG zone isn't broken, in fact, it might be balancing considering all of the graveyard removal they've put into the set. Simply because in extended and standard getting cards back from RFG is not broken, in fact might help balance the environment, I don't think that they'll be restricted to SB only. Besides, it's also counterintuitive that "not in the game" doesn't include "removed from the game".
Quote:What if u play a Phyrexian Furnace vs ur self after u play the 'cool' cards this might be cheating or even if ur opp. tormod crypt. maby in a recregin deck use the dreams.
Let's wait for the FAQ before saying whether they can fetch rfg cards or not. Guessing leads us nowhere.
--
Chris
It seems pretty obvious, really - the Ma'Ruf's Oracle wording *specifically* mentions both RFG and out-of-game. The wishes *specifically* mention only one of them. I'm going with ol' Raskolomew on this one.
Errata: "Raskolnikov", not "Raskolomew". Jeez, only one obnoxious classical literature reference and I somehow manage to mess it up...
"Raskolomew?" Sounds like Rasko's started playing Pokemon...hehhehee...
Andy T.--reprint duals--
Who actually thinks that these wishes aren't going to be changed like the Ma'ruf's abilities. Either they will be restricted or they will have the same limitations on card restrictions, (ie. not being able to bring in another restricted card if there is one in your deck. Or oly being able to get cards that are in the sideboard or are removed from the game.) What's to stop people from getting multiple copies of the big blue or power nine. Imagine how broken a deck could become that ended up having 4 tiwsters or walks in it. Errats will happen to these cards quickly I think.
-Keith
CTThespian:
your sideboard would NOT be legal if you had another copy of the same restricted card as one that is already in your deck.
You may ONLY have 1 copy of any restrited card, between maindeck and SB.
-----
Something I am curious about is:
Does anyone know FOR SURE if you will or will not be able to fetch a card that has been removed from the game from an effect like force of will, or swords to plow, or jesters cap?
will it ONLY be able to fetch cards from the SB?
Thanks.
-Freddie
Figuratively speaking wishes are better then sex if they come true because they can give you what ever you want. Anyway that was just silly. Back to seriousness XD.
I glanced at the spoilers and these wish cards seems nice but when you reall think about it would you use any of them?
The Red Wish card seems that it would be a win more card. Usually if you cast Yawgmoth's Win you win the game. Besides you remove much of your good stuff during your Yawgmoth's Will so there wouldn't be much to get the second time around. There aren't any sorceries other then Timewalk to get besides Yawgmoth's Will. It could be nice in some situations but in most cases it ends up being a dead card until you cast
Yawgmoth's Win and in that case you should have
won the game. You can sideboard Perish and Pyrochams to make this decent against agressive decks but where do you get the sideboard space.
The Blue Wish is kinda not so useful since getting back a counterspell that you removed to force of will isn't so good to warrant this. Why not just have another counter in the first place?
There aren't any instants in your sideboard either.
The Green wish is pretty neat cause it can get Dwarven Miner out of the sideboard against control. Other then that its usefulness is not so good unless you put more creatures in your sideboard.
Quote:Figuratively speaking wishes are better then sex if they come true because they can give you what ever you want. Anyway that was just silly. Back to seriousness XD.
Against combo you can get Monkey...Personally, I think with the Living Wish, boarding a Negator might not be a bad idea.
Cards that are 'removed from the game' are from that point on outside of the game and thus affected by the wishes. The oracle even describes 'removed from game' as an out of the game area. Of course this makes perfect sense considering that being removed from something implies no longer being part of. I've yet to see anything from Wizards that suggests that 'removed from game' is no longer outside the game, but now in the game. Just because the Ring of Ma'Ruf was errataed to clarify the way it functions, in no way suggests that Wizards changed the 'removed from game' from meaning what it implies to meaning that the card is now in a special new zone that is somehow still in the game, despite being removed.
I'd say when it's all said and done they will clarify things as they usually do and that outside the game will in fact include cards removed from the game.
Well, Burning Wish might mean 5 Time Spirals for academy... but Living Wish means 4 Academies! (you'll have to board the 1, but you'll now have 4 1G cc instants to get it for you)
>>>Figuratively speaking wishes are better then sex if they come true because they can give you what ever you want.
Yeah, but isn't sex going to be the most popular choice for what to use a 'wish' on? Sounds like someone is Vampiric Tutoring for Mystical Tutor to me.
Secondly, serious business. Wishes in Academy? Whoever thought of the idea of using Burning wish as an unrestricted TimeSpiral (I think it was Jacob Orlove): it's an excellent idea, you get defnite props--however it won't work. Or rather it works, but it doesn't help the deck at all.
What people need to remember is that the Academy deck I built bears almost no resemblance to "Academy" the deck that ruined magic for thousands of players. Mana is SCARCE in the early stages. Timespiral is an expensive card to begin with and now it's costing us UUR5. That doens't sound too good. Now it can fetch Wheel, Windfall, etc. but that requires SBing them and that makes the deck a HELL of a lot less explosive since you'll waste a turn's mana 'wishing' for a Wheel instead of just casting it. So in conclusion, cool idea, but no way.
The idea of SBing Academy and running multiple Living Wishes to fetch it IS interesting and I will test it, but I already see a ton of problems with it and don't have high hopes for it. What Academy needs is not more tutoring, but one more cheap draw-7.
P.S. I didn't invent this silly subject line. I was 1984ed. I have my priorities straight.
Oh I'm sorry, I also meant to say, after resolving the one Timespiral, if you can't win easily something is horribly wrong with your deck. Still, I'll give it a trial run.
Let's see... the Red Wish basically acts as a special Regrowth for Yawgmoth's Will, RFG'ed Blance and RFG'ed Time Walk. (Assuming it can get both SB and RFG cards.) Or it just is a mini-Will for RFG'ed Walk and Balance (because why would you wnat your Will back after blasting everything from grave to RFG?). I think I side with Mako here.
The green wish is golden. I have both Miner and Shaman in my side, and I could just imagine to add a Masticore (although I always was set against it in Keeper) and also move the second Morphling to the board. All I need is more green mana. Regrowth, Sylvan and Wish off only Cities, Mox Em and UP won't work.
The blue wish could enable you another stab at the RFG'ed Ancestral after a Will, but for three mana... Ain't gonna, R&D!
Dozer
With living wish, is a second morphling even necessary? Even if you have to pitch your first one to fow/mis-d, living wish can (probably depending on the exact ruling I guess) get it back.
And if it comes down to "damn i can't wish for morphling bc i don't have one in the board" you could still get a core
just a thought
I hope that is how the wording is, so that you may fetch removed from game cards, and not just SB cards.
Oh I wish...
-Freddie
2 Morphs main are obviously no longer needed, but putting on in the SB makes perfect sense. Thus you have one real Morphling and one card that transforms into your choice of shaman, morph, miner, core, or any wierd tech card you might have in your SB. If Morphling is RFG with FoW you can just use the wish to get him back instead of going into the SB, but the ability to be able to turn it into a morph on command in any situation is important with only one real one in the deck.
If the wishes don't let you get rfg cards, i don't get it. flashback is one of the big themes of the block, so it would make sense if wishes let you retrieve them. I'm not sure it will matter taht much either way tho...
Quote:The idea of SBing Academy and running multiple Living Wishes to fetch it IS interesting and I will test it, but I already see a ton of problems with it and don't have high hopes for it. What Academy needs is not more tutoring, but one more cheap draw-7.
But if Negator cost 4GB how good would it be? 
I do have hopes for Burning Wish though. I think your idea is a good one that ought to be abusable in some way.
I looked at the DCI floorrules and they specifically say one restricted card per DECK. Up till now nobody would be daft enough to stick another copy in the SB since you couldn't use both. Can anyone confirm if you can in fact run extra copies of restricted cards in your SB if the desire grabs you? Please excuse my ignorance if I am indeed wrong about this. Anyone who has read the Stompy thread will at least be prepared to laugh at anything I say.....
Interestingly enough Three Wishes wasn't very good although it looked OK at first. Why do you think that only one wish will be better than Three Wishes?
I clearly remember that restricted means only 1 copy allowed between maindeck and sideboard, though I can't find the specific text that says so, I'm still 99.9% sure on this.
Gzeiger,
the cost would be spread over 2 turns, and last time i checked, you generally go up by 1-2 mana/turn, so it shouldn't really slow the negator drop-except it just becomes harder to drop one turn 1. Maybe have a morph in the side too?
I think the reason burning wish won't break academy is the fact that its a sorcery, right?
BD Stompist, when playing Academy I usually cast all of my spells, including instants, during my main phase. Burning Wish likely won't make the cute in Academy because the only card it can get is the Time Spiral and if that has resolved it is probably already winning.
Razor
Negator just doesn't seem that scary when it comes down that slowly somehow... Its only advantage is blinding speed, and if the cost is spread over two turns, he comes out third turn at best, and Keeper is not without answers to a random creature like that.
I don't think anybody answered my other point - a Wasteland in the board makes Living Wish able to deal with nasty lands, allowing you to Mystical for a Wasteland directly.
Timetwister and Duress both aren't terrible choices for Burning Wish against control. You could also possibly switch Braingeyser to the board for a Skeletal Scrying. That's a bad idea, I think, but possible. It could also be Chainer's Edict or Vindicate.
FBI - all Academy's spells interesting spells are already sorceries except Crop Rotation and Meditate. What difference does it make?
I was just curious, but could u use 4 of the Blue wishes, and add 4 Ancestral Recalls to your SB, making u essentially have or add up to 5 Ancetrals in your deck? If this is true, could mono-blue make a comeback? And of course if you can't afford 5 Ancestrals (LOL) u can always throw 4 FoF in your SB?? Just curious.
Only 1 restricted card between deck and SB.
From the Floor Rules:
121. Deck-Size Limits
Constructed decks must contain a minimum of sixty cards. There is no maximum deck size. If a player wishes to use a sideboard, it must contain exactly fifteen cards.
With the exception of basic lands (plains, island, swamp, mountain, and forest [including snow-covered variants]), a player’s combined deck and sideboard may not contain more than four of any individual card, counted by its English card title equivalent. (Note that snow-covered lands are permitted only in formats that allow the Ice Age™ set to be used.)
Restricted means that 1 applies here instead of 4, so only 1 restricted card total in deck+SB.
--
Chris
Restricted Card: A card that is limited by the DCI to one per deck in the indicated format. For example, the card Black Lotus is restricted in DCI-sanctioned Type 1 Magic tournaments. This means that only one Black Lotus is allowed per deck in the Type 1 format.
Plus
Constructed decks must contain a minimum of sixty cards. There is no maximum deck size. If a player wishes to use a sideboard, it must contain exactly fifteen cards.
With the exception of basic lands (plains, island, swamp, mountain, and forest, including snow-covered variants), a player's deck and sideboard combined may not contain more than four of any individual card, counted by its English card title equivalent. (Note that snow-covered lands are only permitted in formats that allow the Ice AgeTM set to be used.)
As I previously mentioned, the DCI rules say 1 per DECK. I could find no definition of deck but the rules often refer to deck plus sideboard so it is logical to refer to the 60 or more maindeck cards. Up until now there was no reason to ban extra copies from the SB since there was no sensible way of using them.
I think this really only applies to Academy since having an extra copy of Ancestral for UU2 (kind of like Intuitionand a SB slot or RB3 for YawgWill plus a SB slot doesn't seem very broken whereas having 1 Academy plus up to 7 tutors for it might be very dangerous.....
Interestingly enough you could also wish for a Doomsday!!
Well, I must say I'm excited about the wishes too. Particularly the blue and red wishes. (My Keeper deck is on the shelf for now while I play test a U/r control deck.)
WotC kinda stole my thunder though. I enjoy creating my own Magic cards in my spare time and one of the ones I came up with was:
Resurrect
1W
Sorcery
Put into your hand a Magic card you own removed from the game. Draw a card.
It is similiar to the wishes, although it's a little more limited because it can only fetch a card removed from the game (i.e. Yawgmoth's Will, Time Spitral, a blue card pitched to Force of Will, etc.). I was going to post this card on the Mill and ask if it would be played (probably in Keeper). I also considered making it blue, which would up its playability ten-fold. Imagine casting Yawgmoth's Will more than once a game!
This is the basic rule. By the means of restriction, this number is lowered to one for individual cards. That's how I would interpret it.
Quote:a player's deck and sideboard combined may not contain more than four of any individual card
Dozer, I agree. I think the intent of the floor rules is that instead of a limit of 4 for a certain card, the limit is now 1, distribulted however you like.
I just don't see where these wishes will be much more successfull than in casual play, at least as a whole. Maybe one will find play in a focused deck strategy. Matt's point about Morph in keeper looks like the best idea I've heard so far.
Overall, I'm not too excited, other than the multi color land card I saw somewhere for G and W.
Andy T.--reprint duals--
I agree about the intent, but I can't find any rule stopping you from playing with 3 more copies of a restricted card in your SB. The floor rules I posted above specifically mentions 1 per DECK and there are multiple references to DECK plus SIDEBOARD elsewhere.
For Keeper this isn't a huge issue but I think Academy is always an accident waiting to happen, needing just one more card to turn it into a monster again.
I'm not terribly excited either but at least the wishes have potential and WW got a Flying Man (Scryb Sprite). There are some nice but very narrow cards that could end up in a few decks. I think the problem is that R&D are trying not to print broken cards and we are looking for them!
I think Hollistic Wisdom has proven that a card has to be very good to break into tier 1 type I decks and even then it isn't always enough.
Green and Red cards that you have to play in your mainphase (or one of your main phases - stupid rules) have to do something earthshattering. Remember that most Keeper decks will prefer to have those SB bombs in the maindeck for duels 2-3.
BTW- WTF is up with the CC of the white wish!!
"D.13.8 - Some cards are 'restricted' so that only one may appear in the combination of deck and sideboard. These cards are: [Update 2001/12/01] " ...
One Restricted Card Total
Quote:BTW- WTF is up with the CC of the white wish!!
Rakso
Yes I did say that under the assunmption that it is an umnlmited wish which can grant you anything. Matt did hit it dead on that Wishes are preferable. After all it is true that many guys think with their peepee instead of their brain which is unforgivable. Back on topic, I agree that the Wishes are not very good.
Matt:
If your a guy I guess sex would be one of the most popular wishes but there are plenty of things I'd rather wish for..... Ruling the world is cool then you could have everything, nice japanese gardens, servants to do any chores.
This discussion is getting really stupid.
I remember when there was a big discussion about how Planar Portal was going to be so good. No one uses it.
This is probably the same way. Its way too limited. Access to sideboard cards game 1 is nice but if your going to change your deck so its less effective and you have to reach in your sideboard which is also less effective because you changed it in order to be able to fetch cards with wishes.
The Green Wish is useful only if you add more creatures to your sideboard.
The Red Wish we do not know if we can use it with Removed from the game cards but even if we could this is very narrow and not worthy of main deck. I do not have any sorcerys in my sideboard.
The White Wish costs too much at 5 Mana.
The Black Wish costs life.
The Blue Wish is useless because there are no instants in the sideboard other then Red Elemental Blasts and maybe Swords to Plowshares and why not just run another counterspell.
Quote:Matt:
If your a guy I guess sex would be one of the most popular wishes but there are plenty of things I'd rather wish for..... Ruling the world is cool then you could have everything, nice japanese gardens, servants to do any chores.
Quote:I remember when there was a big discussion about how Planar Portal was going to be so good. No one uses it.
Quote:The Green Wish is useful only if you add more creatures to your sideboard.
>I remember when there was a big discussion about
>how Planar Portal was going to be so good. No
>one uses it.
Actually, I know two Keeper players (in different metagames around here) that use it. It's just on the edge of being good, or alternately, it proves its worth to them often enough to keep them from ditching it. But, admittedly, it didnt live up to the expectations.
One interesting thing is how Planar Portal is being used in Coffers-MonoBlack in T2 now. (Along with stuff like Aladdins Ring of all things!) The point being that generating 8 or 12 mana isnt hard with Coffers mid- or late-game, so the cost becomes a non-issue; only the result matters. The reason why it works is because Coffers is unrestricted. Despite people maindecking potential LD like Vindicate and Rancid Earth you just cant kill all the Coffers.
So back to T1. A year or two ago, when Planar Portal came out, and while the worth of FoF was still being debated (imagine such a primitive time!), a lot more Keeper decks were playing Academy for massive mana to feed giant Braingeysers or to easily hard-cast FoWs etc. One Academy is really marginal considering all the effective LD in T1, but the Portal players all said, "Fetch the Academy with the Portal first, then go to town."
I am trying to draw a parallel between the declining popularity of the Academy and the similar decline in the Portal in blue control decks. But now that Coffers are the new king of mana production, will there be a new deck in T1 which can support huge, expensive control artifacts? Gotta love those words - "Counts as both swamp and islands..." - gives designers a lot of room to manuever.
I wonder if you can use the wishes to somehow set up a combo deck, even a janky tutor chain like Burning for Demonic for something like Jar, Bargain, Dream Halls, etc.
Hmm.. I'm thinking of an underworld dreams deck with twister & wheel in the sideboard, and 4 burning wishes maindeck to get them with. And you could use diminishing returns and use wishes to get back the removed cards. Just a thought..
Again, i believe the Red Wish may not prove maindeck worthy in Keeper decks, although it has to be tested. The Green Wish on the other hand is too good not to play, being able to fetch a Masticore game one vs Sligh is VERY nice, and not having a dead Shaman vs half the field is also pretty good. A lot of Keeper decks already had Miners in the sb and some even a 2nd Shaman, replacing two more slots with a Core and a Morph seems more than reasonable to me.
Okay, the point of playing combo is explosive speed, so using these to set up some inane tutor chain it jut ridiculous. I also think the idea of SBing Wheels, etc. is similarly, just plain wrong for most types of combo. The wishes may very well have combo use, but they demand a new idea.take on a deck or even a totally new deck--not slipping them in to fine tuned killing machines costing you an extra turn.
The green wish is excellent. The only question is how badly does it fuck up Keeper's mana base and is that worth it? The red wish is weaker than I first thought, but not terrible. I won't be running it. The fact that it's R2 not R1 or at least an instant really hurts it.
Although the Blue wish is the least flashy (I mean all the good instants are in our maindecks), I think it may turn out to be a hidden gem of the wishes in the long run.
Gizzard and Mako,
Planar Portal sucked period. Also, planar portal was a SIX casting cost spell and required a total of TWELVE mana, at least half of it mainphase no less, before you got your investment back. I fail to see how that comparision applies, even remotely, to an instant that costs U2 and a sorcery that costs G1 and puts a card straight back into your hand.
Quote:The only question is how badly does it fuck up Keeper's mana base and is that worth it?
I am 100% positive you will need more green. as it is running a Sylvan of of 4 Cities, a Mox, and a gimp land is REALLY pushing it--it's just that Sylvan is SO damn good it that it's worth the slight litte bit of inconsistency it injects into your deck.
If you're going to run Living Wish, Sylvan, and Regrowth you will need 2 Trops, 4 City, 1 UP, and Mox/Lotus to feel comfortable.
Quote:Planar Portal sucked period. Also, planar portal was a SIX casting cost spell and required a total of TWELVE mana, at least half of it mainphase no less, before you got your investment back. I fail to see how that comparision applies, even remotely, to an instant that costs U2 and a sorcery that costs G1 and puts a card straight back into your hand.
Rakso is wrong! Current Ring of Ma'ruf Wording:
5, RFG: The next time you would draw a card, put a Magic card you own outside of the game in your hand instead.
Running Sylvan and Regrowth off 4 Cities, UP and Emerald works fine for me, that's a fact.
This is my current mana base:
7 SoLoMoxen
4 City of Brass
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Mishra’s Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
I won't include 2 Trops. I am absolutely loath to take out the Factory, since I have no other damage-dealing win condition apart from Morphlings main (i.e. no Miner/ Shaman MD). It saved my ass too often. One Underground Sea will make the trip to the binder, but I don't think I'll take out more. The reason is that I never had any problems with my green to support Sylvan and Regrowth. One Tropical Island will be sufficient.
Dozer
Nonono, Crystalkeep says Israel is wrong. The REAL current Ma'Ruf wording is:
Text (AN+errata): {5},{Tap},Remove ~this~ from the game: The next time you would draw a card this turn, instead put into your hand a Magic card you own removed from the game or not in the game. [Oracle 2001/08/24]
And that's the bottom line, 'cause Stephen D'Angelo said so.
Fine, don't blame me when you can't cast mox monkey early (when he matters) because you don't have green to fetch him. Versatility at the price of a lot of speed/consistency is a bad thing.
I will play it with one Trop. But I am not absolutely impervious to my own testing. Maybe you are right, but that remains to be seen. And if so, I'll put the blame on my erratic disbelief in Matt D'Avanzo's advice...
Dozer
Rakso: I remember Nick F. using it in his Keeper deck for a while. (Planar Portal I mean)
I don't think NickF was serious. :p
Quote:Fine, don't blame me when you can't cast mox monkey early (when he matters) because you don't have green to fetch him.
So far everybody (that I've read at least) has suggested cutting Shaman and/or Morphling to fit this and some other cards into the deck. The problem with this is, even if this card is essentially a creature, you are still down a creature. If you use this to get a Shaman, you're down a Morphling. If you use it for a Morphling and the Morph dies (ie, if it doesn't die you win, so no big deal), you no longer have a Shaman. If you could still fit this card in, along with fitting in your full non-creature SB, and all the normal creatures, this card would be good. But since thats a lot of fitting in, and there are already tons of good cards that could be played and aren't, I think this card is rather weak.
I wouldn't want to have to deal with getting a Shaman, casting him, getting him Plowed, and then being down to 1 Morphling total. Afterall, there was a reason people were running 2 Morphs before this card....
-Eric
I agree with Spin. The green wish at least is too unreliable for keeper players. Vs combo or other keeper decks I want gorilla shaman out soon. And with Morphling you don't want to be depending on a card to get one that's out of play.
If the opponent knows what the wish is probably getting you have to protect the wish and then the morphling when you cast each. If you lose the counter war over the green wish you'll just have lost a morphling. Definitly. And with only one left on the deck.
Perhaps I've explained myself mischievously, but in the end what I think is that all the wishes are being seriously overrated and if there's at least one that should be in a keeper deck that one ought to be Burning Wish. It gets pyroclasm, timetwister, perish... Pretty neat card. The only "if" is on wether the deck isn't already protected game 1 vs aggro. The red wish doesn't seem to add much to the deck other than making it better vs aggro decks which already is.
So, even Burning Wish is just a win more card. It's good, and I would probably play it, but it's not as good as everyone claims.
> I don't think NickF was serious. :p
He was. He was still playing maindeck the last time I went up to the North Bay; that was long after interest in the card had died out here on BD. Like I said, it wins just enough games (or wins in a spectacular enough fashion) to keep its fans happy. I wouldnt say its "optimal", I think its arguable if its even "good", but it sure doesnt "suck".
Its basically a game winner for 6 colorless mana, a lot like Mirror Universe was back in the day.
No, really... I don't remember any interest at all on BD, except people saying, if I can tap for 6 mana twice, I can probably win.
Spin -- It doesn't remove itself from the game, and you have Regrow and Will. Get Monkey or Miner early, and cast it off Will for Morphling.
Nevermind -- it does remove itself. That sucks.
Nevermind -- it does remove itself. That sucks.
Well, after finding out that they don't get RFG cards I'm a little disenchanted with the wishes. The green wish isn't worth screwming up my mana base for if it can't also get Morph out of the RFG pile when I force him. The blue wish however, is still about as good as it was and will liekly be tried in the Vamp slot as an StP/Reb split card and to do random crap like fetch Response or Mis-D as needed (instant speed hilarity).
Rakso:
> Ruling the world? Are you sure you aren't Negator? :p
You know it everyone wants to rule the world.not just Negator. Its all about how vocal they are about it.
> Miner and Core aren't bad starts. :p
I already have
Matt:
You are so right. Planor Portal was horrble osting 6 mana and 6 mana to activate. Yet when it came out there was this big discussion about how good it was. U2 is a little costly for a tutor based card but 1G is the same cost
as Regrowth.
Spin:
I concur. Having to use a Tutor to get a Gorilla Shaman seems silly to me. Green is also an off color to me so it is not really an option.
Does anyone see the disadvantages to Wwishes. They are tutors for cards in your sideboard but under the condition that there are cards of that type that corresponds to the wish. The fact that they are tutors is a disadvantage in itself because they cost time / mana and do not actually net card advantage They do offer the advantage of getting you a sideboard card first game but
with all the changes everyone has been advocating to sideboard making it less powerful in order to work with wishes is counter productive.
Would it not be better to have a stronger overall sideboard then to have access to suboptimal cards in your sideboard in your first game
and you might not even see the single wish to get them.
Mako: I told Matt I was wondering how he'd fit the GREEN wish and that adding 2 Tropical Island flies in the face of everything we've bitched about for a long time.
But, I honestly don't think it'll screw your SB that much if you do it right. I don't want to start doing 3-card tutor chains just to find something early like Shaman though.
> Although the Blue wish is the least flashy (I mean all the good instants are in our maindecks), I think it may turn out to be a hidden gem of the wishes in the long run.
I agree. I can see myself putting good, but limited use, cards such as plagiarize and teferi's response in my sideboard as well as perhaps an extra misdirection and STP. Of course when you consider the mana needed to cast both the wish and the fetched spell it may prove to be too costly.
> Well, after finding out that they don't get RFG cards I'm a little disenchanted with the wishes.
When the heck was this confirmed?? I don't recall anything in the rules or example of when Wizards changed Removed from Game to being still in the game. Just because they reworded a card to clarify it, does not mean that they changed the rules. Remember, the Ring was originally worded identical to the way these cards are.
However, there are several cards that include effects that remove things from the game, yet require those things to have a memory of being in the game (the Nightmare Horrors from Torment, Liberate). Perhaps that's part of the reasoning for assuming that RFG is still in the game, however nonintuitive.
Rakso, I remember a good deal of fuss about Planar Portal on these boards when it first came out. It died away pretty quickly once people got their hands on the card and tried it out, but many people thought it looked promising.
White Knight:
Quote:If you lose the counter war over the green wish you'll just have lost a morphling. Definitely. And with only one left on the deck.
Though if you're scared of Morphling, why counter the green wish in your own end of turn?
It's not an instant!
So, have we also given up on the Red Wish? I thought the idea of sb a single copy of Pyroclasm, Perish, Timetwister and maybe Fireball sounded very interesting and since most Keeper decks run a good amount of red it shouldnt mess with your mana.
Gzeizer: i said i wasn't going to make myself understood:P Well, you're right though. (note to self: gotta sleep more).
In the end the conclusion is the same: I wouldn't play living wish. Never. The tempo it costs does not make for it.
Burning wish however should be something a bit diferent, but I'm not sure.
Quote:So, have we also given up on the Red Wish? I thought the idea of sb a single copy of Pyroclasm, Perish, Timetwister and maybe Fireball sounded very interesting and since most Keeper decks run a good amount of red it shouldnt mess with your mana.
Quote:In the end the conclusion is the same: I wouldn't play living wish. Never. The tempo it costs does not make for it.
Spelljack
3UUU
Instant
Counter target spell. Remove it from the game instead of putting it in its owner's graveyard. As long as it remains removed from the game, you may play it as though it were in your hand without paying its mana cost. If it has X in its cost, then X is 0.
Please note the special line of text: 'as long as it remains removed from the game'
I would have to think that during playtesting a possible strange situation arose. Someone probably cast a spell and got is spelljacked or some such, and then wished the spell back to their hand (from the RFG area), and maybe even went on to play it! You could see how that would create problems. Can the Spelljacker now cast the spell even though it's in your hand? Can he cast it now that it's in your graveyard? Stranger yet: Can he cast your creature that is currently in play?
I would have to say that this is why they probably put that special line of text into Spelljack, because wishes CAN affect removed from game cards. Remember the only card prior to the wishes that could affect removed from game cards was the Ring of Ma'Ruf. I highly doubt they put in special wording for a card that is banned in all supported formats, and probably rarely if ever sees play in any of the formats it can be used in. Furthermore, there's a lot of cards that previously removed cards from the game with the ability to affect them later, which also would have been at the mercy of Ring of Ma'Ruf (even as recently as torment in the form of the nightmares). None of these cards ever got special wording, the special wording didn't show up until the wishes showed up.
So be at ease Matt and you other pessimists, you will be able to wish back your beloved Yawgmoth's Will!
Damn, I do need more sleep.
Let me see if I can get the idea straight: WHY WISHES SUCK:
You're better off by NOT playing because:
1- you're pulling cards from the SB, when you have a chance of pulling them directly from the deck with no tutors.
2- they make for a three tutor chain. (ex: demonic, living wish, shaman...) in case that's what you need.
3- because of #2, this costs you tempo advantage that might be vital against some decks vs which you want to have them early.
4- imagine you play timetwister, regrowth, will, or some other form of recursion... it's far easier to use said recursion to pull an important creature/sorcery spell that was countered rather than to replay the wish all over again.
You can't replay the wish since it removes itself.
you can replay it if it was countered, though.
Rakso:
I tried adding Tropical Islands to cast Sylvan awhile ago and it helped to cast Sylvan but I missed Mishra's Factories too much. Too many control players make the common mistakes of using Sylvan Library too much or being Wasteland Happy and Mishra's are a good solution to these two mistakes. Mishra's Factories are also 3/3 blockers for defense and an uncounterable offence that must be dealt with.
The green wish does not make it worth running Tropicals although casting Sylvan Library reliably does.
I already have Shaman and Masticore maindeck and it seems really silly to me to have to Tutor to get only one of them. Against Sligh you want access to both Shaman to eat Cursed Scroll and Masticore to kill their creatures and them.
The Wishes would definately make your sideboard less potent in games 2/3 to gain a slight advantage in game 1 if you draw the wish.
Fever Dog:
The Red Wish is no good because I play no sorceries sideboard. Pyrochasm is inferior to Powder Keg since Powder Keg kills big critters too only problem with Powder Keg is Null Rod. Perish is only really useful against Stompy and not enough people play it in my area to give Perish a slot. I play Timetwister maindeck and it has been a long time since an X spell has been good.
The only wish I would consider playing is the blue wish. The White wish costs too much mana and the black wish costs life, the green wishes fetch nothing in my sideboard except for Dwarven Miner who is not good game one when there is creature removal and Tutoring to get Shaman or Masticore is no good, The red wish also fetches nothing in my sideboard. The blue wish can fetch a swords to plowshares or red blast from the sideboard depending on whether you are playing aggro or control and it can be pitched to Force of Will.
White Knight:
For once I agree with you Tutoring for sideboard cards is not such a good idea especially when they are not so good with the added cost of the wish card.