Right now, combo is apparently dead in Type One. I say this with certainty, having seen just about everything Type One has to offer during the past year. There are no combo decks that even approach Tier 1 Status. There are no Tier 2 combo decks either. Why? Not because the tools aren't there. Rather, because the top deckbuilders haven't adjusted since the mighty Trix deck was destroyed by the the departure of Necropotence. Combo was simply tossed aside, abandoned in favor of the great control decks, Keeper and XLU (Legend Blue and BBS). So what have we seen in the past year?
TURBOLAND? Effective, but fairly ordinary.
ACADEMY? Potentially Explosive, but inconsistent.
Can go nuts, but it also beats itself with bad draws.
PANDEBURST? Just isn't effective for a variety of reasons.
DOOMSDAY? A bad joke.
That leaves us with....TRIX. This deck has been attempted so many times in the last year, with disastrous results.
But think about it. This is Type One, where a combo deck has the explosive artifact mana and card drawing it needs to be Tier 1.
Why is Trix not Tier 1, when Illusions plus Donate has been lurking out there for a year sans Necro? The broken mechanic of Illusions plus Necro is gone. But gaining 20 life is no small reward.
Why play Trix, though, instead of Keeper or XLU?
Well, my answer is that it is not as good as either deck, although in a few days, it is VERY probable that XLU is going to take a hit. Even so, it will still be strong. But Trix has a chance to be a top deck nonetheless, if people are willing to play it. I am hoping the deck I am about to present will catch on, and give Type One the 3rd point of the triangle (combo, control, aggro) that has been missing for a year.
Where did I get this idea from?
Well, I want to say right away that I did not think of the idea I am about to present. In fact, I got the idea for restoring Trix to Type I from Pro Tour New Orleans, which showcased Extended.
Kai Budde won that tournament, as most of you know, with Illusions/Donate (Trix). Many people dismissed this deck after Necro was banned, thinking that the combo was no longer viable. This, obviously is not the case, as Budde and Klauser made Top 8 with the deck at PT NO.
I am going to be playing Trix during the upcoming Extended season, it is just too tempting to ignore the chance to play yet another incarnation of this beastly combo that won't seem to go away.
I don't even know who thought of the idea for this new version of Trix. It certainly wasn't me. But what my idea is, though, is to in fact bring this deck to Type I, which to my knowledge, no one has realized is possible yet. This will not be the first time that Extended decks have been powered up and converted into Type One decks.
Now I know as well as anyone that in Type One, the control decks are far more powerful than anything Extended has to offer. Keeper, Legend Blue, the whole lot of them, are faster and have better counters than Extended control decks, which would seemingly inhibit combo decks in Type One right now.
But the combo deck can also benefit in the same way. After all, it too can have access to the broken speed of the Moxes and the excellent assortment of counters available. From Extended, I want to take the Intuition/AK engine to run this deck. I am not going to bother splashing other colors in the intial version (besides red), because they may not be necessary.
This, then is my idea: To convert the newest version of Extended Trix into a Type I powerhouse. I am not talking about making a Tier 2 deck. I think this can be a deck, that at the very least, will demand sideboard attention from other decks. There is no reason this can not work. Type I needs a shakeup, and this is the deck to do it.
The way I see it, if Fof is restricted, we will hopefully have a real war between XLU, which will still be a top Tier 1 deck, Keeper, Suicide Black, and Trix. If Fof is not restricted, I still see Trix as a strong contender.
The return of a strong combo deck and the restriction of Fof (which doesn't bother me as much as you might think) should really shake up what many have said is a 'stagnant format' (although thats not really true, but nevertheless)
So, here is an initial decklist I have in mind for Trix.
Trix: A New Beginning
4 Illusions of Grandeur
4 Donate
4 Intuition
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Merchant Scroll
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Fire/Ice
2 Red Elemental Blast
5 Moxes
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
4 Shivan Reef
4 Volcanic Island
8 Island
Side:
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Pyroblast
2 Capsize
3 Morphling
4 Blue Elemental Blast
With the red/blue combo, there is plenty of protection for the combo. The potential for a transformational sideboard is also there. I have not maindecked Capizes because right now Seal of Cleasning is not big factor as it is in Extended. It is more important to be able to deal with opp. countermagic. The beauty of this is that you can keep the opponent guessing about whether you will stay with the combo, or go with some Morphs from the board. Fire/Ice, though, I really like. It is at worst, a cantrip. But The Fire part is needed to deal with nuisances like Specter, or to off someone who has gained some life. Zuran Orb is a little bit of a problem, it will not be easy to pull of the combo twice. Null Rod is annoying, but it is annoying for any control deck as well.
Please post comments. I think I've got something here. If this works out like I think it may, I could have a new deck to potentially play at Neutral Ground (once at least) if for no other reason than the surprise value.
As for matchups, in this early phase of thinking about the deck I have come to these conclusions.
KEEPER---This is a fight. They may side in a boatload of Pyros and Reds that they already had to deal with XLU. This is an unfortunate side effect of XLU's presence--the same cards that are good against XLU are also good against this deck.
Also, before you jump at me and say "Oh this is worse than XLU because you can't use Back to Basics" I agree with you. Well, of course I do, I am the biggest proponent of XLU!! But, the deck is still formidable, and it is just a different strategy altogether. Against keeper, it may be wise to just stick with the combo, depending on their sideboard. This is a tough matchup, a real fight. I would imagine that if this deck became really widely used, Keeper would be ready for it.
XLU---A tough match as well. But Legend Blue and BBS can't side in those annoying Red Blasts, whereas this deck can. An interesting battle. Even more interesting if XLU starts using Accumulated Knowledge itself.
SUICIDE---Traditional suicide,and my new deck, YourFirearmsAreUselessAgainstThem are well equipped to combat Trix. This will be a tough one too.
THE REST OF THE FIELD---This is why I really like this deck. I think Trix will smash any deck besides Keeper, XLU, or Mono Black. And I think it can be made to battle those decks to a standstill, perhaps a little better in some cases. But think about it? Sligh. Please. Stompy---I don't think so. Enchantress? I may need Capsizes for this one, but even CooberP concedes that Combo is a bad matchup.
That's all for now, but I want to see what kind of reaction this gets. I am very interested to see what happens.
Well, let me see some responses now.
I'm skeptical, Ed, although I'm sure you can prove me wrong. But if I beat that one game out of ten I'd be happy.
If I may suggest, chuck a Intution and a Fire/Ice and add a Capsize and a Stroke maindeck. 4 Intution seems a bit much, Capsize can end the game if they can pay for illusions, and can bounce anything that may disrupt the combo. As good as Fire/Ice is, I think a Stroke is pretty good with all quick mana you have, or even useful in the later game if there is one.
Vegeta2711
"My self righteous sucide, why cry, when angels deserve to die."
In principle, the deck is solid.
The engine is good, the acceleration is there, and you have room and time for quality counters. You also have a build in way to survive aggro decks.
That being said I must admit to being skeptical about the anti-control matchup. I won't make any bold predictions without testing and 10 counters in a combo deck is pretty good, but a few things make me nervous.
a) Moxen gives you a better initial burst of speed than medallion gives in extended, and can give you fast kills, but part of the advantage of the extended version is how many spells it can pack in in the crucial 3-5 turns, so I'm not sure if this is as fast or as capable of overwhelming counters.
b) With very little in 'under the radar' card cycling/drawing (search spells which don't get countered), a dedicated control deck may be able to stall your engine out early.
c) I am certain that one of those donates should be a maindeck capsize. Donate is something that you dont necessarily want to overload on. I am just concerned that you should have some protection versus Aura Fracture, Seal of Cleansing, etc.
Legend: First of all, I think Rushing River is better than Capsize for your purposes.
Anyway, Kai Budde already tried this in Type I, and (he emphasized to me) that he went 3-0 with it. I'm wondering if the Academy engine isn't more solid. What you're doing is taking the AK combo to replace the other card drawing.
Maybe, for Type I, I'd suggest you not run 4 of each combo card, at least.
You want 4 Donates in this deck so you can Intuition for them. Yes, with 3 you can do that. but 4 of everything is very Intuition-friendly.
Also, as far as under-the radar stuff, Merchant Scroll would be it. It is a sorcery which is annoying, though.
The Medallions are interesting.
They do have that one distinct advantage over Moxes: once the Medallion(s) are out, you can cram a number of blue spells into one turn. However, they do not give the deck the initial speed burst that it needs. Without the speed burst, you lose those great first turn plays like Mox + Land=Merchant Scroll for Ancestral. Or Mox, Mox Land=Intution for AK. Or even the simple ability to cast Fire/Ice right away. Interesting debate, but it would be hard to use Medallions and Moxes. When it comes down to a choice, I think the Moxes have to get the nod.
Remember, Capsize can be maindeck or sideboard. It all depends on the metagame. In extended it is an obvious maindeck choice. In Type I, though, there are not as many Seals out there.
Didn't Kai play the restricted list version of Trix? I believe at the Invitational he did not play the Intuition/AK version.
This version exchanges the explosive black cards like Necro for the more stable and consistent AK engine.
Legend: Yes. I'm just not sure if the AK engine is better than the brokenness in T1.
I got to talk to Kai last week about the T1 deck, and he said there was just so much more brokenness in T1 to fuel the deck.
I also think you could use something else. Maybe cut Donate, Illusions, Fire for 3 of another search card like Impulse or Brainstorm (which works with Scroll as well).
24 mana sources seems low. Add Mana Vault at least (at the expense of the 3rd Donate). I can also see one Fire/Ice go for either a REB or a Misdirection.
This does not have a tier 1 though.
--
Chris
tier one _feel_. (I hate to leave words out like that)
--
CF
CF: I wouldn't go below 3 Illusions and 3 Donate so you can use Intuition as a finisher.
No way is it Tier I.
I don't think Mana Vault works so well here. What you want is things that speed up Intuition.
I have been testing this deck for extended. Four intuitions is too much. Three will do fine. Not maindecking capsize (rushing river is no substitute) is just asking for trouble. Capsize is flexible, reusable, and can practically win the game on its own in a pinch, especially with saphire medallion. I have ended morphling stand-offs by bouncing all of my opponent's lands. I'm not sure if 4 donates are necessary, last night I started testing a mystical tutor and 3 donates. I really like fire/ice, but four seems a bit excessive. You can always merchant scroll for it. Blood moon is a very good substitute for back to basics. I have no idea how this would work, but saphire medallion AND moxes could provide a lot of mana acceleration.
the medallions are not vulnerable to null rod, but do not help speed up Fire, so which would you think works best against sui black?
Rakso: I meant of course the 4th Donate, not the third (he listed 4, I suggested cutting 1). Don't you think _I_ know how Intuition works? :oP
--
Chris
Actually, Sapphire Medallion can be fit in, but at the expense of off color moxes. It may work, here is that version. I like this version better than my version from last night.
4 Sapphire Medallion
1 Mox Sappire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
4 Shivan Reef
4 Volcanic Island
9 Island
-------------
4 Illusions of Grandeur
4 Donate
4 Force of Will
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Mana Drain
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Intuition
4 Fire/Ice
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
Wow,
I can actually comment on this deck because I've played against type 1 versions of it.
1. First off I'm wondering about the 2 maindeck ReB? Are they extra counter or are they in to be able to blast the illusions once you've already donated? I feel this deck has to have a way to get rid of the illusions. Playing against this deck with orgazhmatron, I was able to disrupt it enough to go into the late game and after he donated the Illusions I was still able to kill him with factories and a Morphling. So IMO the deck needs a way to pop the illusions or else you're going to lose some games that you should have won.
2. Should Timetwister be in this deck? What happens if you've just Intuitioned for a Donate and then you get Hymned or Twisted? You need a way to recover a lost combo piece in case the proverbial "shit" hits the fan.
3. I agree with the Rushing River Call. It will allow you to bounce both a Rod and a Negator, hopefully giving you the turn or 2 you need to combo them out.
To Rakso and others:
You can't cut Donates or Illusions. This has been going on for a year now, with people suggesting to have less than 4 of these cards. This is not the right thing to do. The deck is already fragile enough, why make it more fragile. With Intuition, you want 4 of each in the deck, so if one is duressed or something, you can Intution for the other 3 Donates or Illusions. I don't know where this fascination with playing with less than 4 of each of the combo came from, but I don't agree with it.
Also, Kai Budde's invitational deck is a bad deck to copy. It was a bad deck, and the other inivitational decks weren't so good either. Most of the people at the invitational don't know the first thing about type one. Kai's invitational Trix is an inconsistent and fragile deck. The fact that it went 3-0 against equally incompetent and suboptimal decks proves little to me. I tried a version like that, and it stalled way to easily.
Maindeck REB's are good maindeck calls because they protect the combo, and give you a way to pop it. Remember that Trix has traditionally used one or two maindeck Red Blasts, even back in the day when it had 4 Necros.
But you don't 'need' a way to
'pop' the Illusions once you Donate it. Soon enough they won't be able to pay it.
Quote:Four intuitions is too much. Three will do fine.
Random note: the idea of running as few combo pieces as necessary comes from Bargain (running as few as 2 Bargains and 1 Skirge) and the original Trix, where, after drawing 39 cards, you have no doubt of finding either the combo or a way to get the combo.
I vote for playing good cards: Twister and Wheel being the most notable.
-Eric
Legend: Cutting combo cards is key because you can stall with them in hand.
Hell I care if you have them if you can't protect them.
For fun, I tried your deck a few hours ago. It STALLS.
Also, the way you have to wait several turns till they can't pay the upkeep, sometimes I wonder if you just shouldn't play Morphling except few decks have an MD way to deal with a Donate that goes through.
Keeper, though, does have a Zuran Orb. If it didn't go nuts with Sylvan earlier, it can take the hit and ZOrb up to 24 (hedging against a Fire).
I'm not so sure you can pull the SECOND combo as easily as the first... without Necro and with Intuition the only thing that pulls combo components directly.
I really think you need one more manipulation card.
Oh, and I'm not sure Sapphires are better than the Moxen.
Moxen help you get Intution out of the way early.
The deck could use something to recur Accumulated #4, though, since you run out of gas bad with only three draw cards in the deck.
CF:
Quote:Rakso: I meant of course the 4th Donate, not the third (he listed 4, I suggested cutting 1). Don't you think _I_ know how Intuition works? :oP
::a shadowy figure makes a run-in through the crowd, and piledrives Legend through a flaming table::
Translation: Beware the Ides of December.
From both of us. ;)
Legend: Well, I suggested adding two cards so how you could think I wanted to remove 4-5 escapes me :o)
You can use relearn for that last AK. Maybe Recall is better though, as you might draw alot of excess lands once you are going...
--
Chris
5 Moxes
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
4 Shivan Reef
4 Volcanic Island
8 Island
1 Tolarian Academy
-------------
4 Illusions of Grandeur
4 Donate
4 Force of Will
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Mana Drain
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Intuition
3 Fire/Ice
1 Timetwister
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Capsize
I feel that the Capsize is necessary, even if only to give youself an extra turn to live, or to pop the combo.
As good as Fire/Ice is, you can still Intuition for it at 3 in the deck, and with 4 Merchant Scrolls its easy to fetch.
4 of each combo piece is necessary for repition, fetchability and so you dont get in a no win situation.
Timetwister can refill a stalling hand, get you out of a no win situation, and it's blue so it can be pitched to Force of Will.
Play Tolarian Academy! You have 8 artifacts with the build above. Thats the kind of fast mana you need.
One prob with this is that unlike JohnO's High Tide build, Merchant Scroll fetches everything but the combo.
I must confess that i am very skeptical. The last three Type 1s I played all had various combo decks, some with protection and counters. I beat them all with a different deck each time. XLU, Keeper, BBS and Firearms all have weapons. Even IronMonkey can side in six cards that hurt you. But after testing a few of your decks I'm reluctant to discount it altogether.
The combo can be fetched via Intuition and Topdeck Skills.
The scrolls get cards that draw more cards. They can also get a FoW if you need counter backup.
Remember, if the DCI restricts Fact or Fiction, BBS, XLU, and to a lesser extent Keeper, will be out a major card drawer. This deck is looking to step up when they step down.
Legend,
Several comments that address the broader issues you bring up:
First, I see little reasont to abandon the New Trix 2000 Kai Budde invitational variant for this: that deck had as much disruption in terms of blasts and duress and abeyance that this does, but was more efficient.
Second, despite x-lu weakening very soon, a slower Trix build seems only to help the X-Lu in that matchup.
Third, the Budde invitational trix deck uses more broken cards, Will, Necro, etc and has a wider range of sidboard options.
People at bdominia had never placed much weight into the new trix (invitational) build, but I suspect that this is partly the fault of the rise of mono blue in TOC1 and so on. Beyond that I'm skeptical that either version of trix, while able to beat keeper, would able to handle X-Lu of any form.
Essentially, I see little reason to play the specific build you've posted over the invitational trix. That doesn't mean I don't think the archtype is inferior, but perusing the decklist, it doesn't seem to be stronger against control that the origional.
Stephen Menendian
Having actually played something similar for a couple of days, I can say that this deck OWNS aggro. Period. Nobody likes having to deal 20 more damage to win; that extra time gives you things to think about. (aka time to Donate that silly Illusions to them... trying to win against 20 extra life is hard enough; to ask a Sligh deck to win against 20 extra life AND a drain on their mana is just bad)
Unfortunately, this is not Tier One simply because it's weaker against control than XLU is. If your metagame's like mine, and has a ton of aggro decks, play this one. It does very well in that metagame. Otherwise, don't bother.
if you are up to adding black as a third color, cut the of color moxen, drop down to 3 donate/illusions/intuition... and add rituals as acceleration, demonic, vampiric, and that one restricted necro... i have been playing U/B trix on apprentice... however, im not using the AK/intution engine... i am using impulses and going for that necro... this adds sideboard flexibility against control for duress if your into it, which im not really... i like the red blue version your posted... but i also feel that necro is restricted... its not banned :-)
I can't see how this is better than Academy. It doesn't have Academy's explosive turn one win potential, and compensates for it...how?
I just don't see Intuition/Accumulated Knowledge as being able to keep up with the abundant broken draw power in Type One.
Legend,
I know that I'm not a big name on this board, but I can tell you from experience that Mono-U Trix is easily disruptible and can be stalled.
I know that your deck has no board control. It cannot handle threats that are already in play. Playing against it I found that often times the deck would complete the combo, But I would have 8+ mana Sources in play and a Morphling/Core and Factory or 2. I could pay the upkeep for a few turns until I deal another 20 damage witht the permanents I had in play.
How do you expect to win against SuiBlack when they have Carnophages, negators and Hyppies in play and you have no way of dealing with even after you donate the illusons? Decks like OSE, Stacker, and Suicide black all have too many large creatures that you cannot deal with. In my experience, your deck does not consistently go off fast enough to combat this problem.
I mean no disrespect and would enjoy listening to your rebuttal on this. Thanks.
Quote:This deck is looking to step up when they step down.
Go test it.
Quote:Several comments that address the broader issues you bring up:
Quote:I can say that this deck OWNS aggro
Quote:cut the of color moxen,
Quote:I just don't see Intuition/Accumulated Knowledge as being able to keep up with the abundant broken draw power in Type One.
It's very good early but one Intuition and one Merchant Scroll later, your AK combo is out of steam, and I don't think you'll always win on the first exchange.
Rakso, I did read the above posts - as should be evidenced by my indirect rubuttle of them, to the point, I disagree with this statement:
"
This version exchanges the explosive black cards like Necro for the more stable and consistent AK engine. "
I don't really think the new Kai Budde trix deck was that unstable. It's only flaw was running out of mass drawing cards,which it ran in abundance, which means that it should only lose to control decks, which it did.
The Invitational deck is simply a better trix build to start with, I think. Yet, I think the central problem remains, the loss of FoF will not destroy Mono blue, and Trix, in any form, just won't be able to stand up to it.
Stephen Menendian
The Trix deck needs work, but I feel it can be a good deck overall. That's really all I'm saying here. I need to work on the deck and take it to a tournament. It is far from optimal and needs A LOT of work. I just feel that the potential is there, thats all.
I'm sure there is a way to figure it out, I'll try and have something more to add in a few days.
Stephen
Of course the loss of FOf wont kill Mono Blue. I'll still be playing it with 1 Fof.
Throw in helm of awakinings AND medalions 1 frantic search and some mediates ;) ("ok... lets see I Have 3 blue floting correct? Ok then illusions, donate, ahh lets say hoodwink it game")
this is generally the set up for the poor playa (being me) my 2 cents
Legend: Might it be possible that High Tide is even better? What I dislike is that you can stall because Merchant Scroll can't fetch combo pieces. You may want to try something that gels the combo and is fetchable.
The first things that come to mind are Meditate and Stroke.
Technomage: Read the above, but High Tide would be the most viable budget combo becaues it runs on Islands over fast mana.
Legend said:
>>>The Trix deck needs work, but I feel it can be a good deck overall. That's really all I'm saying here. I need to work on the deck and take it to a tournament. It is far from optimal and needs A LOT of work. I just feel that the potential is there, thats all. <<<
Now that I agree with, and I applaud you for your efforts to create a viable new deck in type one.
Additionally, I would say if you are going to stick with that build, you should at least be playing four blasts.
Stephen Menendian
On a budget (without Power and Mana Drains) this is a pretty god combo deck right? (compared to other combo decks...)
I was thinking on how to maximize the use of the Medallions, and wouldnt it be nice to cast counterspells for U?
Mana Leak - God in the beginning, bad if the game is stalling...
Memory Lapse - God for forcing combo pieces through, he/she will be dead when they redraw that Lapsed Counterspell anyway...
Arcane Denial - I know you dont like it, but maybe It can help you to get going after stalling?
Some versatile cards that I like in this deck:
1 Mana short - can be fethced vs control with Merchant Scroll before you are going off, it can also end the game in your opponents upkeep like Capsize if you will die before they cant pay the upkeep.
1 Capsize - besides the reasons already mentioned, it is god when you need to go off twice.
1 Mystical - Can fetch Donates, very god when going off the second time when 3 donates already are in your graveyard.
1 Thwart - Better than FoW when you dont a blue card over =)
The reason why I am concered about going off twice is that my area is full of ZOrbs and Swords...and with 4 Donates, 1 Mystical, and 1 Capsize, thats no problem...
Actually, on a budget, it's either you play the Extended deck, or go play High Tide which is less reliant on the expensive stuff than any other combo except Prosbloom (which sucks four years later)
This is a follow up to the other Trix thread.
*DISCLAIMER*: I don't think that Trix is nearly as good as Legend Blue or Keeper. But I really think I can turn it into a Tier 1 deck.
Understand that, and then you can really appreciate this thread better.
I've tested the Trix deck out a lot today, and I've taken a lot of suggestions that I got in the other thread into account.
The deck DID need more search to avoid stalling.
I've fixed the deck up and I've come up with what I think is the most EXPLOSIVE deck in Type I. Obviously not the best, but the most explosive. After Fact or Fiction is restricted, I think XL-U will still be on top, with Keeper a really close second, perhaps closing the gap without Fof as much of a factor. But they are both weakened by Fof's restriction. Once again, I'm going to say that there is no reason that this Trix deck can't be Tier 1.
For all of the problems and fragility of the combo, the deck is incredibly consistent. Yes, I know. Seal of Cleansing. Aura Fracture. Suicide Black. The weaknesses of this deck are painful and glaring. But the strengths are also obvious. Such as the ability to put someone away in 3 quick turns. Thats saying a lot in today's game, when lets be fair about it, only the inconsistent Academy deck can do better than that, albeit with all its attendant problems.
I'm not going to tell you that the deck wins on the second turn 75 percent of the time or something like that. But what I will say is that you can expect to score consistent 4th or 5th turn kills. 3rd turn kills are not rare. 2nd turn kills obviously require an insane hand, and 1st turn kills (which I've gotten in goldfishing) only happen when the combo with sufficient artifact mana is in hand, or when a Time Walk is involved.
I think people may have to take this deck more seriously than they think. I may have to take this to a tournament and do some damage to really get this deck into the metagame, though.
I think this deck needs a primer. Maybe I'll write a brief one.
Lets take a look at the decklist I have right now, and then I'll go over the biggest problems this deck faces and some of the card choice I made.
The deck and sideboard are still a little rough, and will need more revisions. I am not certain about the mana base or sideboard. Also, the number of Intuitions is open for debate.
DECK NAME: Trix: A New Beginning
MANA
28)
8 Island
4 Shivan Reef
4 Volcanic Island
1 Mana Crypt
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Sol Ring
4 Sapphire Medallion
SPELLS: (32)
4 Illusions of Grandeur
4 Donate
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Impulse
2 Intuition
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Force of Will
2 Fire/Ice
2 Red Elemental Blast
SIDEBOARD:
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Pyroblast
2 Fire/Ice
2 Rushing River/Capsize
2 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Morphling
Here's what I've discovered. Everyone who was advocating a full set of Moxes and Lotus was right. Everyone who was advocating Sapphire Medallion was also right.
The deck needs both. If this deck can get a first turn Sapphire Medallion down, its chances of winning shoot up dramatically. With all the artifact mana, this will happen frequently. The Medallions are VERY IMPORTANT.
Once a Medallion is in play, the deck can go nuts.
Then it is time for the Accumulated Knowledge engine.
Obviously, the idea is to Intuition for three AK's, draw three cards off that, then Merchant Scroll for the 4th one and draw another 4 cards. If the combo is not set up by then, Merchant Scroll can get the other Intuition to find the missing combo piece.
Impulse is surprisingly good and really sets things up.
But getting back to the Sapph Medallion, you'll be surprised at how good this card is. This deck goes berserk with this in play. With so much card drawing/manip, its amazing how 4 Force of Will and 2 Red EBlast seems like so much countermagic.
Once the Illusions are Donated, the Blasts can also finish them off.
Now, some problems.
Please don't tell me how a Seal of Cleasning ends the game for me. I KNOW. If I was afraid of this, I would maindeck Rushing River or Capsize. However, at this time, I am not concerned about this card at Neutral Ground. In your metagame, you may see fit to maindeck these cards. At some point, I may have to as well.
Another problem is winning counterwars. This is not AS BAD as you might think. First game, maybe, although two counters are sometimes enough to force the combo through.
Second game, though, You can side in 6 more blasts against XLU, and also the 2 Blue Blasts to deal with keeper's Pyroblasts.
I cut the Mana Drains for now, they are not proactive enough (I will be tapping out a lot). So I need the cheap Red Blast and the free Force of Will. Mana Drain is really more for control decks.
2 Fire/Ice seems right for a random metagame, although you will want 4 against beatdown. They can also kill someone who gained a little life.
I was considering a lone Fireball or Torch to help out with that problem. Zuran Orb is a problem and is worth countering.
I've got the Morphlings in the board for some surprise value. You can obviously wreak havoc and play with people's heads with this sideboarding strategy.
In a more control heavy metagame, I may want as many as 4 Red Blasts maindeck. They are never useless, as I said you can always turn them on the opponent once you've Donated.
Aside from Suicide Black, this deck really owns any aggro deck.
I'll have some more thoughts in a little while or some time after a little while.
How often do you have the counterspells needed to protect your combo? Seems like even with a draw of 3 cards using the intuition AK, you will still not have the kind of counter power that would allow you to be consistent. I must say, i find the intuition AK engine interesting.
Seems like you leave yourself entirely open to any and all actions against you and the cards you are playing with so few answers to threats.. however, im gonna playtest this a little and come back with a more educated response, just wanted to share some initial reactions and get your thoughts.
Well, you're right---the deck has A LOT of holes.
But being that this is a combo deck, a lot of control elements have to be sacrificed for more search.
The idea here is to combo them out before the holes become a problem.
If you can just fend them off for a few turns, you can pull it off.
Rakso, obviously you combined the two Trix threads because of too many posts or something?..?
The new decklist is different enough that it could have another post..?
Also, I noticed the 'subtle' change of "NEW DECK: YourFirearmsAreUselessAgainstThem.dec" to "Black Deck: YourFirearmsAreUselessAgainstThem.dec."
Why?
Was it not 'new' enough for you? (;
I agree with the change in title to Black Deck: YourFirearmsAreUselessAgainstThem.dec, since recent times have forces the rules to become more consistently enfored. I am refering to this one:
-----------------------------------------------
Old posts will be deleted or kept based on what it seems to contain, based on the subject line. Beyond Dominia cannot guarantee that threads labeled vaguely ("My deck" and "Black is good," for example), will be archived, regardless of actual content.
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Basically all Rakso did was give people a better idea of what the post contained, and he also protected your post from being deleted based on a vague header. i would take that as a bit of a complement towards your post that he took the time to insure it got the right attention.
Now on to my comment about the deck. Ive been goldfishing for a little while (havent been able to play anyone just yet) but i have noticed that this version is more consistent than the last one, or at least it seems that way right now (once again, only goldfishing right now).
You were dead-on with the comment that sapphire medalion speeds up the deck, a first turn sapphire medalion usually means it will go off a turn or two faster. Right now it seems to be going off around my third to fifth turn. But it has never gone off turn three without an early medalion.
ETP
I agree with everything you just wrote.
You seem to have found what I found, which is that the new version is bit more consistent and that Sapph Medall is GOOD. Real good.
I also agree with what you said about Rakso and new policy.
I haven't been paying attention to new policy---thanks for clearing that up. I only glances at the Mills a couple of times this week, so I wasn't aware of the changes until tonight.
What Rakso did does make sense with that in mind.
No problem then. I thank him for doing that for my Firearms post if that was the case.
I think you should use 4 Intuitions because you cna fetch any card you want and it doesn't cost you that much mana. I'm all outta U/R duals and Power cards
This is my version of the deck:
4 Illusions
4 Donate
4 Intuition
4 Impulse
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Merchant Scroll
1 Capsize
1 Relearn
4 Mana Drain (sure it's proactive, but it gives you mana as well)
4 Force of Will
4 Sapphire Medallion
1 Sol Ring
21 Islands
4 Intuition is too many. 3 may be okay, though.
I've settled on 2 for the moment.
4 is too much, I found in testing, because you rarely need to Intuiton more than twice, and the 4 Merchant Scrolls ensure that you'll be able to get them even if you only have 2.
4 may clog your hand. But Relearn is a good idea, I'm considering it.
This will probably sound really stupid and probably won't work at all, but I wanted to work on aversion of trix that ran lich. Donate and lich can rape your opponent, illusions and donate can rape your opponent, illusions and lich, well, can rape your opponent. I know everyone thinks lich sucks but itt might be worth a try (Its also my favorite card of all time). I would love to see combo reenter into teh formula. The deck would need alot of black mana for lich though. If anyone has any suggestions as to a deck with these three core cards, drop a line.
Quote:What Rakso did does make sense with that in mind.
Quote:4 Intuition is too many. 3 may be okay, though.
I see you have upped the mana. Now if you can swap the _4th_ Donate (and keep 3) for another Intuition, we are getting somewhere ;o)
--
Chris
CF: Though if he's splashed red, you think he should go all the way anyway? Yawgwill would just be a godsned here, especially if you need a second run of the combo.
hi, i know i'm not here often, and you probally have never seen me before. legend, i look upon you with more respect than anyone else in this mill.
i have also been working on a trick deck for type 1 so i figured i would share my thoughts. first i have no power that sucks. i made my version mono blue. i replaced fire/ice with psionic blast. since it is mono blue you can use back to basics... which i know you are a big fan of. also, library of alexandria may be worth a slot since it can keep you from stalling... although it is probally too slow. i also find that in a lot of matchups, arcane denial is really good. the cantrip makes it harder to stall and vs aggro, the cards they draw usually don't matter.
anyway, that's what i've found. i didn't use blasts though so red still may be the way to go.
fire is key vs. aggro. being able to get 2 for 1's with it makes it far superior to psi blast, plus it cycles if necessary.
@Lord of the Goats
Thanks.
Obviously, without the power 9, it will be significantly more difficult, since you lose the explosive turn 1 or 2. (Unless you draw a Sol Ring)
You'll have to play it more like the Extended version. Without red, you lose the important Red and Pyro Blasts. Add red if you have the 8 dual lands. Fire/Ice is solid, but not spectacular.
Without power 9, your acceleration should be 1 Sol Ring, 1 Mana Crypt, and 4 Sapphire Meddalion. You may even consider Mana Vault. Mana Crypt I think is around 25 dollars..?? I think you may be able to get your hands on one, it is restricted anyway. At least with Sol Ring, Crypt, and Vault, you can alleviate the acceleration problems somewhat.
But I really would add red. The one huge benefit you would get from playing mono-blue is that you can uses Back to Basics, which would be great in a transformational sideboard with some Morphlings.
But red does have Fire/Ice and the Blasts.
@Rakso
I've been thinking about adding black. Yawg Will and Tutor seem too good not to use, its probably a good idea.
As for the Intuitions, though, maybe 2 is too few, as I have said.
However, when I goldfished a few games, and then tried it against a couple of decks, 4 seemed excessive as well. 3 may just be the right number.
Even though it is necessary to fetch the combo, it is amazing how Merchant Scroll gets you everything you need, including the Intutions.
I think Mana Crypt is around $4. At least I can get them for that price around here. Scrye lists it at $15 tops, but we know how much that means :p
"fire is key vs. aggro. being able to get 2 for 1's with it makes it far superior to psi blast, plus it cycles if necessary."
dosn't combo own aggro anyway? psi blast does more damage which may make it better. i think fire/ice is replacable. reb may not be. i'm not saying i'm god or that i'm right, i just think it should be looked at. b2b is a winner against keeper... one of tricks worst matchups.
Like i said, i have only been goldfishing right now to get the hang of it, and i tried relearns (replacing the REB's) as one of the first things i tried. I would prolly regret that choice when i come against a counterspell deck, but its alot of fun to use them on the AK.
I say you should keep the amount of intuitons at 2, it hasnt been a problem getting one yet, and you really dont need to see a third one show up in your hand. Although i will try 3 out, just to see if it speed it up any.
I also looked at Kai's Extended deck and have been playing with a T1 version, what about cutting an Impulse for a Recall?
This allows you to ditch excess land and turn it into another AK for 4, or to bring back any combo pieces that got Duressed away. It would also allow you to combo twice if your opponent StP's their own creature or gets off an early ZOrb.
What about a White splash for Abeyance in the Fire/Ice slot? This would be like another "virtual" counter along with REB - and draws the card which I think Fire/Ice is mainly used for.
Recall isn't so good.
I think a real possibility for recycling, though, is splashing black for Yawgmoth's Will and Demonic Tutor.
I wonder Legend if you ever saw the Alien deck that took second place at a 145 player tournament in Madrid last March. It looks bizzare and the sideboard totally transforms it. but it did extraordinarily well. comments?
4 Academy Rector
1 Fastbond
4 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Duress
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ancestral Recall
3 Donate
3 Illusions of Grandeur
2 Impulse
1 Timetwister
1 Time Walk
1 Vindicate
1 Black Lotus
2 Claws of Gix
2 Defense Grid
1 Grim Monolith
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Diamond
5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Phyrexian Tower
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
Sideboard:
3 Savannah Lions
3 Seal of Cleansing
2 Erhnam Djinn
1 Juzam Djinn
4 Phyrexian Negator
1 Phyrexian Scuta
1 Defense Grid
I don't like this deck because it is not as cohesive as the IllusionsDonate deck that we are discussing here.
In the deck I posted, there is a heavy reliance on blue. This works great considering that Merchant Scroll helps piece the deck together. With this version that you have here, there is no reliable engine. Academy Rector is much harder to use than the AK/Intuiton engine. There is no synergy here like we have with Sapphire Medallion, which allows me to go nuts in one turn, drawing seven cards with AK's.
Yes, I understand, once Necro or Bargain is in play it is MUCH MUCH better than Ak/Intuition. But relying on two restricted cards is a shoddy approach. I know this because I've tried decks like that. I've tried every conceivable way of playing Illusions Donate. When I got the Necro into play, it was just as good as old Trix. But I couldn't consistently get it into play. Consistency is sometimes more important than overall power. Hence, the superiority of the AK engine.
Besides, with Morphlings in the board, its easy to have a transformational sideboard with the heavy blue version.
That looks cool.
Okay, some slight problems I have with this deck...not so much your versions, but the deck archetype itself.
All really good combo deck run good cards. Look at Academy and Trix. All of the combo cards are good in and outside of the combo in Academy (Frantic search, Geyser, Stroke, Spiral, etc.). In Trix the same holds true EXCEPOT for the three Donates, however you nearly always chucked them to Force if you draw them before Necro hits.
Without Necro, Illusions is nothing more than a quirky 2-card win condition that serves absolutely no purpose in the deck until you are ready to win. In short the deck is probably much better all-around AFTER the transformational sideboard turns it into a limp-dick control deck.
As someone who LIKES combo and is still trying to find a tier one combo deck in type I, this is my major woe with almost every deck I try.
Secondly, there are a few holes. Zuran Orb is a huge problem. StP on their own critter is a huge problem (I suppose you could Fire them, but still, that's kind of iffy...especially if the power of the critter was above 2). Seal of Cleansing and Aura Fracture are both huge problems. I know you said "I KNOW. If I was afraid of this, I would
maindeck Rushing River or Capsize. However, at this time, I am not concerned about this card at Neutral Ground.", but...well we ALL play with Aura Fracture(s) in the sideboard and some of us use Seal of Cleansing too. Never mind the fact that any intelligent aggo-player using an amount of white in his deck should have Seal. C'mon you don't want to lose to WW do you?
I think the Seal/Fracture problem could easily be solved by adding white and running 2 Abeyance. Post SB you can add in an Aura Fracture of you own.
--Matt
Quote:C'mon you don't want to lose to WW do you?
I don't even like the transformational sideboard that much. And yet, I've still included it, but why?
All I get is a weak control deck. I don't even lik e the idea of siding out the combo. Maybe I would just toss a couple of Morphs in to keep people off balance. Although the one thing the transformational board does give me is excellent counters (Blasts).
At this time, I am considering bringing this to one of the Friday tournaments to break the deck in against some slightly weaker competition, although I would hesitate to throw away any opportunity to play Legend Blue. So I don't know when I will make my debut with IllusionsDonate. The problem is, this deck of course struggles once people start siding in hate for it, so it is best as a once in a while surprise deck for a tournament. You attack with it, then retreat before the next tournament before they realize what hit them and add hate to their sideboards.
@Matt:
Two things:
1. Zorb, Seal, and the whole lot of those problems you brought up are all problems I recognize. There is no way around them besides countering and bouncing them. Those cards make things harder, but don't discourage me from playing the deck at all.
2. Remember, one thing that makes the Illusions/Donate combo still more than just a 'quirky' combo is the fact that you can win the game within 5 turns. There aren't many ways to do this, so even though the Illusions doesn't fuel an engine anymore, it provides me with an opportunity to combo someone out quickly. That is the whole point of the deck, really.
Legend: I know you love your mono-U etc but have you considered going HEAVY in black?
Obviously it robs you of Back to Basics and you will have to drop Sappire Medallion.
However, your playing combo would you not rather have these?
Demonic Tutor
Demonic Consultation
Dark Ritual - Very nice replacment for Sapp Medallion and a great burst in speed.
Yawg Will - More of an option but it's available.
Duress - Go off with Confidence
Vampiric - See other tutors
As I'm sure you can see this opens up so many options for you. Just my thoughts.
Cheers, Barktooth
Legend: It's not a surprise deck because any Type I player should know what Extended Trick is.
I think you might take ZOrb too lightly. Even if Donate gets through, I can Demonic for ZOrb, sac 2 lands to go to 24 and hedge against Fire, suck up the 20 life, then own you from there.
As for the five turns, I tried it and discovered that a couple of Negators can beat the clock.
@Rakso:
Yeah, you're right its not a surprise once the game moves along. Thats not what I am saying.
But it is a surprise for the first couple of turns. When someone sits down across from me, they expect Legend Blue and nothing else. For a few minutes, they will be surprised. Then, they won't be, and they'll be ok.
Its really more of a "I wan't to see what their reaction is" kind of surprise, not a surprise that will keep them off balance very long.
@Barktooth:
Yes, as I have mentioned before, I have considered black. It is a great option for Demonic Tutor and Yawg will. But Ritual has no use because I can't use Moxes, Rituals and Sapph Meddalions. Another option is just to throw a random Necro in. It won't be easy to cast with only ten sources of black, but if it were ever to be cast.....
Besides, I was never considering Mono-U for this deck. I already had red in it, so Back to Basics was never an option, although Ruination could have been an option. But black is looking better and better right now.
And Zuran Orb *IS* really annoying. But its just a fact of life that I would have to deal with playing this deck.
Off Topic:
Have you seen how this have degenerated from "This will be a tier 1 deck", then "This could be tier 1, with a LOT of work", then to a "Surprise deck" and now to a fun deck? ("Just to see their reactions"). Bleh I say.
@Nimrod
Woah. Woah. *Time Out* ..Just a second here...Hold on...wait just a minute....
I think it is a Tier 1 deck. I'm not giving an inch on that. I don't know why you got that impression.
Yeah, the deck has surprise value. What's wrong with that? But its not a fun deck. There is nothing fun about being comboed out on the third turn.
Sorry if you got the impression that I was backing off my position. Well, I am not. This *IS* going to be a Tier 1 deck. I'll prove it. Besides, the title of the thread was "Tier 1 Combo is Back in Type I", but apparently a particular moderator does not agree with me on that
Actually, that gets me a little bit. What, you don't think I stand by my products? You don't think that I believe in my decks?
Now, this is a mission. I will defend this deck's honor or die trying. I must play it in a tournament.
According o the last build you posted there is no academy and you are playing 12 artifacts! Why no academy? Dont ya want fast mana?
yeah good idea
Actually, thats one of the smarter things someone has said here. At least I think it should work.
Here, lets take your suggestion and some of the stuff myself and others have been saying about adding black and update the deck:
4 Volcanic Island
3 Shivan Reef
4 Underground Sea
4 Underground River
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Mana Crypt
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
4 Sapphire Medallion
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Necropotence
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Rushing River
4 Merchant Scroll
2 Impulse
4 Accumulated Knowledge
2 Intuiton
4 Illusions of Grandeur
4 Donate
4 Force of Will
2 Red Elemental Blast
THIS DECK ROCKS!!! C'mon this is tier one. I can't wait to play this thing in sanctioned play--Awesome.
Oh yeah and a possible sideboard: (although I preferred the maindeck Fire/Ice)
1 Shivan Reef
4 Fire/Ice
1 Rushing River
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Morphling
You have 3 Black cards main and 2 Red. But in the board you have no Black and 6 Red. Take out the 4th Underground River and put in that Shivan Reef.
Put a 4th Morphling in the board. You dont want to transform the deck and not be able to get a Stupidman through (cause its stupid just how good it is)
The extra black mana makes it slightly easier to cast Necro...but I need the red mana. What a predicament..sure I'll cut a River. The Necro is hard to cast, but it is tempting since I am playing black.
I find it strange that you don't include Cities at this point.
Remind me why this is better than Academy? It's slower, but what does it gain?
Another Great IDEA!!!
Uh, Dan, Academy is the most overrated deck on the planet. Come on, step into the future of combo with me!! We don't need that inconsistent Academy deck anymore. I've got a vision here...a revelation..
I beg to differ with you-Academy is slower than IllusionsDonate.
C'mon--look at this---no garbage like Meditate. I've played against Academy--I wasn't impressed to say the least.
Simply put--Illusions Donate is the FASTEST and most consistent combo kill in Type One right now. This deck offers a reliable turn 3-4 kill.
Academy? That was then. This is now.
And Rakso, City of Brass is a great idea.
4 Illusions of Grandeur
4 Donate
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Merchant Scroll
2 Intuition
2 Impulse
4 Force of Will
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Necropotence
1 Rushing River
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Sapphire Medallion
8 Artifact Mana
4 City of Brass
4 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island
3 Gemstone Mine
Mind Twist?
Quote:And Rakso, City of Brass is a great idea.
Kai's Invitational deck was nothing like this.
This is more of a cross between the Extended deck and the deck you're thinking of.
I didn't like Kai's Invitational deck. No real engine. Here, we have the AK engine.
The Reason his invitational deck sucked was because of the Draw 7's---that is not for Trix.
Just because it was Kai Budde doesn't mean we can't be smart and realize it wasn't such a good deck. Trix needs an engine--not the randomness of Draw 7's.
I disagree strongly with you Rakso about Kai's deck. What I disagree with is your contention that it was good.
Legend, Kai's invitational deck did have an engine, the fact that you don't understand that important point raises some broader questions - the engine was the massive type one restricted drawers which are used to fetch necro, to fetch bargain, to fetch illusions to get donate.
Stephen Menendian
Don't get me wrong, I'm not slamming you here - I applaud you're efforts; I just disagree with your assessment of Kai's Invitational deck.
Stephen Menendian
Thats NOT an engine. It was a random pile of restricted cards. Thats all there is to it. He beat up on some equally sub-optimal Invitational decks.
And what are you insinuating when you say it raises some "broader questions?"
I think the fact that you think it was an engine raises some "broader questions" as well.
Have you ever tried Kai's version. It is awful. It stalls all the time. It can't win unless it gets luck and force Necro into play, which it can't constently do.
@ Stephen, Rakso, et al.
You know, this is making me wonder? HAS ANYONE BOTHERED TO TRY MY VERSION OUT?!?!?
Don't you realize that Kai had it all wrong (not at Pro Tour NO, but at the Invitational). He tried to play the deck the way it was played with 4 Necros--but he only could use 1!!
I've got news for you---I've tried Kai's version and mine---its not even close. Can you guess which deck I think is better?
Proxy up the deck and get back to me. Not only that, I get the feeling that the addition of black doesn't even do as much as it should. The simple red/blue combo was fine, I ought to just stick to the basic principles.
Here Stephen, Rakso, all of you, PROXY UP THIS FOLLOWING LIST and get back to me after playing it a bit. Do this please. Get back to me with your findings. At least take the time to do the testing I did. I am a little annoyed by the hasty conclusions by people who I consider to be good players.
4 Volcanic Island
4 Shivan Reef
7 Island
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Mana Crypt
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Sapphire Medallion
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Force of Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Illusions of Grandeur
4 Donate
3 Intuition
3 Impulse
1 Rushing River
1 Fire/Ice
2 Red Elemental Blast
Side:
2 Red Blast
3 Fire/Ice
2 Pyroblast
1 Rushing River
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Morphling
Quote:Just because it was Kai Budde doesn't mean we can't be smart and realize it wasn't such a good deck. Trix needs an engine--not the randomness of Draw 7's.
I disagree strongly with you Rakso about Kai's deck. What I disagree with is your contention that it was good.
Yes. Except let me correct you on one thing.
Legend > Kai Budde
And if you have tested the deck, could you tell me what your findings were----that *would* be helpful.
Tsk, tsk... When I said Kai's Trix deck sucked, he flamed me on my own Mill.
::piledrives flaming table through Legend::
My testing showed that 2 AKs isn't always enough to force the combo through, and that 2 Negators can beat the clock.
Um....Rakso, I run 4 AK's, not 2. Maybe thats been your problem?
You should be able to draw 7 cards off them.
Then Merchant Scroll for Ancestral to draw 8, 9, 10.
Unless you mean the 2 AK's that actually that actually get cast.
If so, you don't think the 7 cards are good enough?
You can always Intuition for the missing combo piece.
Ah so now the truth comes out----
You DO think Kai's Trix deck sucked!!!
Legend, I dont see it.
I recon you would agree in a second that bbs (maby + other teir 1 decks) are just better than this deck.
this combo just dont work any more, if u want a combo maby Unifying Theory, or Donate with something else or maby figer out how to take advantage of 8 lich cards... some thing new is needed.
Points I agree with you on Lava:
XLU and Keeper are better than this deck
Points I disagree with you:
The combo does work. Try it. Thats all I ask.
Just because XLU and Keeper are better, that is not a good reason not to try. In that case, why try anything else besides those 2 decks, since everything else is worse.
Quote:You DO think Kai's Trix deck sucked!!!
Quote:You can always Intuition for the missing combo piece.
Quote:this combo just dont work any more, if u want a combo maby Unifying Theory, or Donate with something else or maby figer out how to take advantage of 8 lich cards... some thing new is needed.
Quote:
"You're assuming that your spells will all get through."
Whose assuming that? Not me.
uh....my first version had 4 Intuitions. You don't need to tell me the importance of it.
But seriously, I don't see how you could not think Kai's deck was awful.
Also, you dolt, I did not miss your comments on Z-Orb. I addressed it like 20 some odd posts back ;)
Who said playing this deck against other top decks would be easy? This is not exactly Legend Blue. I might actually want to put some effort into my games for once instead of just bashing people with XLU.
But I can make any deck I really believe in into a top contender.
At least you finally conceded Tier 2 status to this deck, next step is to convince you that it is Tier 1.
Good luck to me in doing that ;)
And that is very funny what you did to the title of this thread ;)
Ha Ha I can take a joke.
It should read: Legend > Kai, though. Of course, you wouldn't have the generosity to do that for me.
You are also the first person to piledrive the table through me rather than the other way around.
Interesting variation.
Fix the title of this thread and this mill would be perfect of course.
Quote:I did not miss your comments on Z-Orb. I addressed it like 20 some odd posts back ;)
Quote:Whose assuming that? Not me.
Quote:But seriously, I don't see how you could not think Kai's deck was awful.
I'm not assuming the AK's get through----but I hope they do.
It is never easy to bring a new idea to the table, but when this is all over with, you will be a believer in this deck.
I can tell that you want to believe. You are just waiting for me to win a tournament with it so you can jump on the bandwagon.
Quote:You are just waiting for me to win a tournament with it so you can jump on the bandwagon.
Legend - point taken
Rasko - I dont think u understand what I ment. it was in no way anything that could be considerd a flame and I consider it quite spesific and relevent to what legend wants to do, I do not understand you coment at all???
OK as long as you don't like Kai better than me
But I will convince you about this deck. With tournament results.
Well, the deck looks good, it can handle arggo (all combo decks can), but when control comes along I don't think the rushing river and 2 REB or FoW can stand a chance. You have 6 counters, with your engine you'll probably draw into 2, but with Trix there's only two threats that need to be countered (ancestral and donate) along with a few power cards like necro, but if they just save their counters for when you donate what can you do?
I think you should take out 4 Medallions for 4 Duress. Duress is great because it shows you if it's safe to play the combo and gets rid of a power card/counter, or it can be bait.
Also, Timetwister might actually work here, since you need refill for combos or protection, but that's just what I think.
I would really add Duresses!!
Quote:I dont think u understand what I ment. it was in no way anything that could be considerd a flame and I consider it quite spesific and relevent to what legend wants to do, I do not understand you coment at all???
Quote:OK as long as you don't like Kai better than me
I have a question for your deck, what are you going to counter with the counterspells, why not test out misdirection?
No but you shoul, because his Trix deck SU-CKED. Pre-restrction Necro-Donate was good (the versions that looked more like Finkel's and less like Darwin's/Pikula's), but post-restriction Trix is ASS. It is a pile of restricted cards, and makes me wonder....if I'm playing with all these things why not just play Academy?
>>>I beg to differ with you-Academy is slower than IllusionsDonate.
Apparently they sell some mighty good drugs up at Cornell. I haven't done math in eight years and counting, but I THINK [turn] 5 Rushing River.
In addition to 4 Cities I think the deck would benifit form Gemstone Mines. If you're winning in a few turns they realyl don't matter and they make casting Necro more viable. I don't recall whether or not I had Bargain in my playtesting deck or not.
I think Y. Will is particularly useful since it allows you a way to combo them multiple times if they do something obnoxious like gain life with Zorb.
--Matt
P.S. The pros getting pissed off at BD for talking about how the Initational deck sucked was actaully how I found this place...
He doesn't go to Cornell man. ;)
YawgWill was one thing I suggested early on.
Matt, the first time I saw you was on the Dojo so I never remembered when exactly you came
Academy is faster than this deck. Go try a decent version; kills after turn three is rare. Your deck has more disruption though, so stands a slightly better chance against control.
--
Chris
I have tested this deck it clobbers goldfish. It lacks something against control of any kind. Goldfish and assume your opponent draws 1 counter spell in the game and uses it on your ak for 3. This pushes goldfish back to turn 5-6. Assuming 2 counters pushes the goldfish back to 6-8 with the average being a little higher than turn 7. If the game goes 7 turns against a control deck you will have lost to card advantage. I like the deck, but I dont think it will win games against control decks. Especially when you consider that sapphire medallions give them cheap fofs and hard castable forces. If its any consolation I dont think kai's deck would win against good control decks either though.
Dammit Legend, I'm not slamming you're deck. How many times do I have to say I think you're a doing a good job innovating for type one.
However, what I meant by broader questions is whether you had played Kai's Invitational deck.
I played the invitational deck in the TOC2. And I have to disagree, Wheel, Twister, Tinker - jar, etc is a drawing engine to get Necro. Just in the same way Fact or Fiction is a drawing engine for BBS.
People here have always and incorrectly underestimated Kai's Invitational deck.
Stephen Menendian
Legend, for crimmiies sake, I'm always looking to play you and you're never in Bdchat - so go there!!
Stephen Menendian
I'll pilot Kai's against yours.
Stephen Menendian
> Legend
"Especially when you consider that sapphire medallions give them cheap fofs and hard castable forces"
not true, the medalion only affects you.
i know i'm going to get ripped on for this but i think arcane denial works well here. so does memory lapse.
Arcane Denial is underrated in combo. If you need a counterspell the same turn "you're going off", there is no cheaper one (with Memory Lapse, they can draw it again and use it again, like with "LoA on the stack, counterspell -> you memory lapse, loa resolves and they get the card back :o). Also, you can use it to counter a Mox to draw three cards (ok, it's not great, but as a last resort...)
No: I am not saying it is a great counter.
No: I am not advocating its use in control decks.
--
Chris
Now, I'm not a Type I player, but in looking at this deck, if Impulse is good wouldn't Lim Dul's Vault be even better? The Vault would guarantee your getting what you're looking for, especially since you plan on gaining 20 life later anyway. It is still blue and can be pitched for FoW, can be searched out via Merchant Scroll, etc. It just seems stronger to me.
Now, whether this is Tier I for Type I is up to you experts.
I've tried Lim' Dul's vault in the past. Good idea, a possibility. It sets things up nicely. Impulse replaces itself, though, and interacts better with Sapph Meddalion. Then again Lim-Dul's Vault gets you to a part of your library you need.
I would favor Impulse a little bit for now, but Vault has been useful and could be again.
Lim-Dul's Vault is actually the most underused Tutor ever. I have recently tried to substitute Mystical Tutor with it in my keeper; with Holistic Wisdom and Oath of Druids, I want a Tutor that can get Enchantments as well.
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Chris
i find it quite hilarious that kai actually made an appearance here to secure his superiority
Legend...
I think that trix is a combo deck that can be played as a fast kill, worry about the bad matchups later kind of deck... OR... it can go the old school reap lace direction in that, since it is blue, you can go heavy on the control... and then just win before you die... you wont get this deck to drop its win-turn average below 4... and everything you add to it will be to make it more consistant in protecting the combo... This way, i think your win-turn will gradually move up to the 5-7 range in favor of more control... and like i said, this is viable due to it being heavy blue... that being said... have you tried a non accelerated version that played more countermagic? The intuition/AK engine is GREAT... i love it... but if you go the route of acceleration, the draw 7's have better synnergy with the cheap artifact drops... wheel, drop moxen, twister, drop moxen, windfall, drop moxen, time walk, win... if you are runnin an engine that builds your hand size instead of cycling through cards, it may be more beneficial to be able to AK into enough counters to wait to draw into an easy and protected kill... i think that timewalk is a KEY card in this deck... the reason is the untap effect... your combo costs 7... and even with medallions, you need blue... so your off color moxen will feed the colorless part of your CC... but in midswing, your blue is going to feed your engine, and the off color moxen are the offspring of your efforts... I really like your build... but because it is impossible to nail this into a 2-3 turn combo deck, i think you can afford to shore it up a bit and sacrifice a few turns...
sincerely,
H
@Hannibal
Hi. You make some good points..but---
The reason I am in favor of playing this deck as a quick kill deck rather than a safer yet slower version is because I feel that the speed is the main attraction of the deck. If I play it as a turn 3-4 deck, then I am getting something different than Legend Blue. If I play it as a 5-7 turn kill deck, it still wins earlier than Legend Blue or Keeper, but I lose that combo feel.
I play a combo deck to get that combo feeling. I get that combo feeling when I combo them out quickly. Plus, if you play with more permission, the deck will stall, and you will give aggro a chance to kill you. If you drop Illusions as early as possible, that +20 life gain will certainly bag the game for you.
I have actually decided NOT to play this deck in Extended, heck I may not even play Extended this year. But the reason I am not playing Extended Trix is because it is not fast enough for me. I want to have the explosive feel when I play combo.
This deck can do so many degenerate things, which is why I like it, and it can do those things rather fast. Plus, if this deck plays more like control, it will probably lose to contro. I feel that the best way to beat a control deck is to force through AK's and Ancestral using my own countermagic within the first few turns. Later on, they will be more equipped to deal with me.
As for the draw 7's, I don't like them for this deck. There is too much of a randomness factor.
I know you like the AK engine as well. There is just no need to mess with it. The draw 7's to me are good only for Academy decks or for quick Zoo decks. With Trix, I should have more cards in my hand anyway, so I don't want to give them a shot at 7 cards as well. I just didn't like the randomness of Kai Budde's deck. See, I have a very stable and reliable engine here. The draw 7's don't give me that.
I don't think this can become a turn 2 combo deck. I agree with you there. But I know that it is a turn 3-5 deck because I have pulled it off repeatedly in testing. That is pretty fast in today's Type One (consider the overall state of combo right now).
Hey, I don't need to convince you about this deck, you already like it. But what I would tell you is to really give it a try as it is. I think this deck needs to really be a fast combo deck. If I want to play it slower, I may as well just play Morphlings and Fof's. I feel that with enough protection, I can force the combo through on Turn 4. This deck generates so much mana, it is absurd. With the Medallions, Moxes, Academy etc, this deck is a real mana factory. You can sometimes overwhelm control with your mana advantage.
Anyway, I hope that helps answer your questions.
Quote:i find it quite hilarious that kai actually made an appearance here to secure his superiority
>>People here have always and incorrectly underestimated Kai's Invitational deck.
Actually I haven't. I've extensively played against (played by very good players) pre-restricton Trix and Budde's post-restrction version. The second version just dies to control and isn't nearly as explosive as Academy.
--Matt
P.S. I think it would have been funnier if Kai piledrived Legend through a flaming table.
::Piledrives Legend through a flaming table, empties a beer bottle, and smashes it over Legend's head while winking at Matt::
::Piledrives KaiB through a flaming feature match table::
I like the deck because it has the abiliy to transform, I play decks like this whenever I can, whatever format.