First, the new D’Angelo Rulings for the cards (copied from Crystalkeep 6.6.2001):
[please pay attention to the emphasis.]
The Rack
Color=Artifact Type=Artifact Cost=1 AQ(U3)/R4(U1)
Text(4th+errata): As ~this~ comes into play, choose target opponent. ; At the beginning of the chosen player's draw step, ~this~ deals X damage to that player where X is the number of cards in his or her hand fewer than three. [Oracle 99/09/03]
- You choose one opposing player as this card enters play and it only affects that one player. This target is not changed even if this card changes controllers. It becomes useless but stays in play if the target player leaves play. [Jordan 01/02/13] See Rule M.1.3.
- The player makes their normal draw during their draw step before this card's ability resolves. [D'Angelo 01/05/19] See Rule P.7.1.
- Amount of damage is determined when effect is resolved and not when it is announced. [D'Angelo 95/10/05]
- Extended tournaments (see Rule D.15) have banned this card since 99/10/01.
Black Vise
Color=Artifact Type=Artifact Cost=1 ABUR4(U1)
Text(4th+errata): As ~this~ comes into play, choose target opponent. ; At the beginning of chosen player's draw step, ~this~ deals X damage to that player, where X is the number of cards greater than four in his or her hand. [Oracle 99/09/03]
- You choose one opposing player as it comes into play and it only affects that one player. This target is not changed even if this card changes controllers. It becomes useless but stays in play if the target player leaves play. [D'Angelo 00/03/03] See Rule M.1.3.
- Amount of damage is determined when the effect is resolved and not when it is announced. [D'Angelo 95/10/05]
- The player makes their normal draw during their draw step before this card's ability resolves. [D'Angelo 01/05/19] See Rule P.7.1.
- If you take control of a Vise that targets you, you continue to take damage from it. - - The "target opponent" check is only made when it is cast and is not checked by the effect again after it is in play. [D'Angelo 96/01/07]
- Type 1 tournaments (see Rule D.13) have restricted this card since 97/07/01. It was previously banned from 96/02/01 to 96/04/01.
- Type 1.5 tournaments (see Rule D.14) have banned this card since 96/02/01.
- Extended tournaments (see Rule D.15) have always banned this card.
- Standard (Type 2) tournaments (see Rule D.16) have banned this card since 97/01/01. It was previously restricted from 96/02/01 to 97/01/01.
And the rules addition that made it all necessary:
P.7 - Draw Step
+ P.7.1 - The game has a "built-in" triggered ability (see Rule A.4) for this
step that reads: "At the beginning of your draw step, draw a card." This
places a "draw a card" ability on the stack (see Rule T.2) on top of
any other abilities that trigger on the start of this step. No player
controls this ability and it is placed after all ones controlled by
players have been placed. [Rules Team 01/05/01]
********************************************
Now, I’m surprised that no one has discussed this, to my knowledge, in this Mill. Take a moment and consider the modern uses for these two cards and how this rules change effects them:
The Rack: now sucks. Almost unplayable. The most you’re going to get out of it 99% of the time is 2 damage (opponent starting a turn with zero cards, drawing, then The Rack triggers for 2). This card was not amazing before this ruling. Now it’s seriously junk.
Deck impacts: Does POX even run this anymore? (This is not a rhetorical question: I’m seriously asking the community for an answer.) I use The Rack in my Chains deck, which is not hit quite as hard by this ruling… but “popular” POX decks don’t hinder the opponent’s draw step.
Black Vise: now even more powerful! Four damage if your opponent has a full hand!?!? This card is now nearly a “W” by itself versus control. If the control player cannot access their disenchant effect(s) by turn 5’s upkeep, the game is over. That’s without the Vise-controller doing anything else! Even if the Visee manages to get two cards out of their hand on the first turn (ie. Mox), they’re still down to 10 at their 3rd draw!
Deck impacts: any deck that was already using this card is happy, but are there more decks, now, that will run this due to its increased brokenness?
Examples:
Game scenarios (opponent plays) for a Goldfish facing a first-turn vise:
Turn Life With Life With
“Old” Vise “New” Vise!
1 17 16
2 14 12
3 11 8
4 8 4
5 5 DEAD
6 2 DEAD
Turn Life With Life With
“Old” Vise “New” Vise!
1 17 16
2 15 13
3 13 10
4 11 7
5 9 4
6 7 1
7 5 DEAD
8 3 DEAD
9 1 DEAD
I really am pissed. Errata should not completely change the way a card works; this does. I can no longer play The Rack in Pox, and I can't think of any viable replacement that isn't cursed scroll. Black Vise was powerful enough. Really, just change the errata that makes it check when the ability resolves.
BTW, is there a universal rule as to when things check X's and such?
Saltz
I think is good that black vise has become much stronger. Now i maybe wanna play with it in my nether void.
Is this right? WTF?
This will fit right into my next T1 article, I can tell you that much.
Ok, I have discussed this with someone at WotC games support and they have a more updated version of the errata.
What has been explained to be is that for either card, the draw is placed on a stack then the card triggers, then you follow last in first out.
The Rack:
I enter my draw step w/ 0 cards and am the target of a rack. I draw my card, then apply the damage from the rack before that card is considered in my hand. This is a last in first out situation so I would take the 3 damage as if the card had not yet made it to my hand.
The Vise:
I enter my draw step w/ 4 cards in hand and am the target of a vise. I draw my card, then apply the damage from the vise before that card is considered in my hand. This is a last in first out situation so I would take the no damage since the card had not yet made it to my hand.
The following are the latest errata, not yet on the Oracle.
The Rack
Color=Artifact Type=Artifact Cost=1 AQ(U3)/R4(U1)
Text(4th+errata): As ~this~ comes into play, choose target opponent. ; At
the beginning of the chosen player's draw step, ~this~ deals X damage to
that player where X is the number of cards in his or her hand fewer than
three. [Oracle 99/09/03]
You choose one opposing player as this card enters play and it only
affects that one player. This target is not changed even if this card
changes controllers. It becomes useless but stays in play if the target
player leaves play. [Jordan 01/02/13] See Rule M.1.3.
This ability normally goes on the stack after the player's mandatory draw
and will therefore resolve before their draw. This is because the rule for
triggered abilities is that the current player's triggers are put on the
stack first, then the other player's, and The Rack is normally controlled
by an opponent. [D'Angelo 00/04/04]
Amount of damage is determined when effect is resolved and not when it is
announced. [D'Angelo 95/10/05]
Extended tournaments (see Rule D.15) have banned this card since 99/10/01.
Black Vise
Color=Artifact Type=Artifact Cost=1 ABUR4(U1)
Text(4th+errata): As ~this~ comes into play, choose target opponent. ; At
the beginning of chosen player's draw step, ~this~ deals X damage to that
player, where X is the number of cards greater than four in his or her
hand. [Oracle 99/09/03]
You choose one opposing player as it comes into play and it only affects
that one player. This target is not changed even if this card changes
controllers. It becomes useless but stays in play if the target player
leaves play. [D'Angelo 00/03/03] See Rule M.1.3.
Amount of damage is determined when the effect is resolved and not when it
is announced. [D'Angelo 95/10/05]
If you take control of a Vise that targets you, you continue to take
damage from it. The "target opponent" check is only made when it is cast
and is not checked by the effect again after it is in play. [D'Angelo
96/01/07]
Type 1 tournaments (see Rule D.13) have restricted this card since
97/07/01. It was previously banned from 96/02/01 to 96/04/01.
Type 1.5 tournaments (see Rule D.14) have banned this card since 96/02/01.
Extended tournaments (see Rule D.15) have always banned this card.
Standard (Type 2) tournaments (see Rule D.16) have banned this card since
97/01/01. It was previously restricted from 96/02/01 to 97/01/01.
Thanks
******************************************************************
Shayne
Wizards of the Coast - Game Support
Website: http://www.wizards.com
Game Support E-Mail: v***t@r***z.com
I hope this clarifies that the cards have only been modified in their sematics... The still appears to work the same as before with one exception...
If you skip your draw step (say like under a necropotence) you are not affected by them.
This requires an email to the Oracle himself...
Thanks though, I never even noticed this errata....
Wouldn't this have gotten much more publicity if it were true? IMHO it eliminates POX as a deck type since it takes a major source of damage out of the equation (Rack)
Well the more I look at what Cha1ns posted the more confusing it seems. It seems that the errata left out the last in first out aspect.
This makes no sense. Yet another email to the great Oracle himself...
CHa1n's errata is later than the one WotC said was unreleased. Sorry about that (unless the errata dated 00/04/04 is supposed to be 01/04/04? I sent an email asking for clarification fom D"angelo. I'll post any response I get.
I would treat it as a last in first out situation until further notice, but that is just my opinion.
D'angelo is going to be correct on this one, I fear. Someone with newsgroup access: post this question on rec.trading-cards.magic.rules (this is almost surely the incorrect name, but It'll get you close) and listen to any of (dave d'laney, steve lord, ingo warnke, laurie cheers- possible some others, but those for sure.) I'll try posting on MTGNews's rules area, and we'll see what we get.
I just checked d'angelo. The ruling is correct, and the reason is:
P.7.1 - The game has a "built-in" triggered ability (see Rule A.4) for this step that reads: "At the beginning of your draw step, draw a card." This places a "draw a card" ability on the stack (see Rule T.2) on top of any other abilities that trigger on the start of this step. No player controls this ability and it is placed after all ones controlled by players have been placed. [Rules Team 01/05/01]
So that you will draw your usual card *before* any other triggered abilities do their thing, because it gets put on the stack, so - vice rules, rack sucks.
andrew:it's rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules
(i don't post anymore, sorry)
This is extremely weird if true.
And these cards have been played for years without anyone complaining of how to play them!
What are the rulings for Rackling?
Why does the rack suck?
I draw my card goers on the stack, then you take damage as if the card were not in hand, then you get the card...
STack:
card
rack..
resolution
rack damage,
card in hand...
what am I missing?
probably the same....8(
(same effect)
Erh...will pox have to play idol!??!?!
Grimshaw: The problem is this. The drawstep now works as follows:
(enter DS)
all draw-step effects contolled by you go on stack.
All ds effects controlled by your opponent go on stack.
>
All of the other beginning of draw effects must go on the stack *before* the regular draw. So it happens *first* and the card is in hand when any of the other junk resolves.
Grimshaw: The problem is this. The drawstep now works as follows:
(enter DS)
all draw-step effects contolled by you go on stack.
All ds effects controlled by your opponent go on stack.
**AUTOMATIC/STANDARD DRAW GOES ON STACK NOW**
All of the other beginning of draw effects must go on the stack *before* the regular draw. So it happens *first* and the card is in hand when any of the other junk resolves.
Grimmshaw, the way I understand it, the Draw goes on LAST**. Thats the whole problem. According to Sphinx (who checked D'Angelo) this is the way it happens....
** "on the stack (see Rule T.2) on TOP of any other abilities "
Sorry, rather big mistake in that post. Where the left arrow is, should be the line
*AUTOMATIC DRAW FOR DRAW STEP GOES ON STACK NOW*
K? Sorry for the double post - Rakso, could you fix that?
Rakso: excellent question:
>>What are the rulings for Rackling?
Rackling
Color=Artifact Type=Artifact Creature Cost=4 NE(U1)
Text(NE): 2/2. ; At the beginning of each opponent's upkeep, ~this~ deals X damage to that player, where X is the number of cards in his or her hand fewer than three.
Viseling
Color=Artifact Type=Artifact Creature Cost=4 NE(U1)
Text(NE): 2/2. ; At the beginning of each opponent's upkeep, ~this~ deals X damage to that player, where X is the number of cards in his or her hand minus four.
- If X is less than zero, no damage is dealt. [D'Angelo 00/02/15]
*********************************
Can you believe this? I thought that the comparison to Wheel and Maiden were bad… but this defies logic. The DCI had to work to make The Rack and Vise work differently than their brethren.
Sigh
Cha1n5
Just out of curiosity does anyone know why they changed the Rack and Vise to hit during the DRAW step instead of during the UPKEEP like it was originally written on the card?
Wow- they really worked to make that weird.
Well- pox has been a dead decktype for a long time IMAO. Fact or fiction simply defies it's attempts for disruption. It is cheap, it killed rack way before this delt the final blow, and it allows the control deck to search 5 deep for whatever it needs next.
So the rack is now even better- you have to be at 3 cards now not to take any damage. I have always been tempted to side this card against control in my blue deck but figured that 20 life is a lot to burn through. Is it still too much?
Because when they went from 4e to 5e, they made them work at the *end* of upkeep, to avoid stupid tricks with tax and ivory tower. (Gee, 4 cards, no vice damage - oh, 7 cards, 3 tower life!) So when they went from 5e to 6e, they decided that they couldn't be having with an end of upkeep step (the only cards which used it were, I think, vice and rack.) So they happened at the next possible moment - beginning of draw.
It takes care of blue's hatred for library too
So now the rack deals a max of two damage? Now that's pure crap. I have to dismantle my bottomless pit deck. it was awesome in my environment. Stupid rulings.
Did I miss a point here...
You all discuss these artifacts as ones whose abilities is triggered during drawphases
Am I wrong to think the effects never get there because they resolve DURING UPKEEP...
WD
I mean has the cards been errataed to work during draw phase?
Am I loosing my memory ?
WD
Yeah, this is all REALLY confusing.
Thing is, WHY did they make such a change?
It could be worse, they could unrestrict Vise in Type I!
I guess that'd end blue dominance in a hurry....
Honestly, why couldn't they just leave the cards alone, 'during your upkeep' doesn't seem particularly broken to me.
So, did, uh, anybody post this in the *cough* Rules Mill?
This is huge. But I think there have been some over estimates regarding the demise of pox. Pox is relying less and less on rack anyway. Not to mention that bad synergy of Rack and ld to begin with. This forces pox into new areas.
Stephen Menendian
ok guys, I'm pretty confused after reading this post so, can I get a clear yes or no answer t this question : When my opponent have 0 card in hand, does The Rack deal him 3 damages?
Le_Lepreux
I forwarded to the Meridian list...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Karsten Dürotin"
To:
Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2001 9:55 AM
Subject: Re: [meridianmagic] Confirm ruling on draw step, Black Vise and The Rack?
>
> Brian Epstein wrote:
> > Personally, I like the ruling that the active player's triggers go on the
> > stack first (draw a card) and then the nonactive player's triggers go on
> > (Rack/Vise), which would keep the 2 artifacts essentially working the way
> > they were 'meant to be'. But whether that's the offical ruling has yet to
> > be seen.
>
> Umh... Brian, that *IS* the official ruling. It works like this:
>
> 1. Start of Draw Step - Active Player's triggers go on the stack - Draw Card
> 2. Start of Draw Step - Nonactive Player's triggers go on the stack -
> Vise/Rack
> 3. Effects begin to resolve last in, first out - first the Vise/Rack, then
> the "draw a card" effect
>
> Let me add that I'm still confused as to the point of this discussion. As
> far as I understand the rules, all of the changes changed *nothing*
> concerning the order in which the card drawing and the rack/vise effects are
> handled. The main difference the "at the beginning of draw step" ruling
> makes is in combination with a necro/bargain, both of which let you escape
> vise/rack easily.
>
> --- Karsten Dürotin
> DCI Level II Judge
So to make a long story short, is Rack still good?
Can I just point out that Karsten Durotin (sorry, no little dots on me keyboard) Doesn't seem to have read the current rulling? As much as I'd like to, I very much don't see anything which allows the 'draw a card' effect to go on the stack anywhere but dead last. It's controlled by the game, not the active player.
Wizards must be seeing something we're not....There's absolutly no reason they would change this. This makes me think there was some way to abuse the drawstep before they changed it. Honestly, I don't think they were trying to kill Pox (yes, this is a massive blow).
Le_Lepreux -
Under the new rulings the rack would only do 2 damage to another player if they had 0 cards in hand
I think that they errated the rack and vise to draw step so that there would be no confusion with them dealing damage and the Ivory Tower/Land Tax combo. I might be wrong though. I hope this helps
Ok I just need to hear it once and for all...
If an opponent has a full hand of 7 cards vise will deal him 4 damage now because it resolves after their regular draw?
Yes, it seems.
Do you think Pox is dead now?
Looks like a vise goes in my side against control now....
Hey, I just got the NetRep in my mail...the guy says that while yes, it now deals only 2 damage, he will "kick this question upstairs." Let's hope we get something positive out of it.
Saltz
LOL...vies goes MD in my stompy, i think 8)
Kaworu:rack isn't really pox's only damage source, not even the major one, it we believe what other players ahve said. Anyway, they have cursed scroll, POX, and chimeric idol/that 3/4 artifact creature
"7) The normal once-per-turn draw each player gets during his or her draw
step has been changed. Rule 304.1 of the Comprehensive Rules stated that
it's a triggered ability controlled by the player whose turn it is. This
is no longer true. The draw-step action isn't written on a card, so no
player controls it. The game simply puts it on the stack, on top of any
other abilities that trigger at the beginning of that draw step. The main
effect of this change is to make cards such as Teferi's Puzzle Box work
the same way for all players in a game."
Check it out here
Yeah, so this pretty much screws Rack and hurts other decks which manipulate the draw step (like Chains of Mephistopheles/Anvil of Bogarden). Curse Wizards for trying to "simplify" things!
This would all be fine if they would just revert un-errata The Rack so that it went back to triggering during the target opponent's upkeep.
I really hate it when a stupid rules change can totally invalidate a deck that people have worked hard to build & tune, not to mention buy. Especially when its not a sick and broken deck of stable archetype.
I've been (extensivly) testing my Pox, Sly, and I can tell you it just lost it's major source of kill damage. Dealing with rack damage is damned near impossible for most every deck out there, and in about 60% of games, it's what kills. Scroll is there mostly for creature control, and rarely doubles as a finisher. The Golems are there mostly to deal with larger, more destructive creatures, or to hold off till I can find a Scroll. Mishra's end up killing 2nd. I can't lose the rack damage and still do well.
great...gotta find something else now...
Just to clarify an answer above. Rack will deal 3 damage if a player had 0 cards BUT this is highly unlikely since the first thing to resolve in the draw phase is the automatic card draw. This means that barring Funeral Charm or multiple Chains madness a player who started the turn with 0 cards would indeed only take 2 damage from Rack.
I believe the major impact is not on Rack but this means that Vise is now even more of a killer card. (Rack was never as strong as Vise)
Playing a Rack and a Hymn when my opponant has 3 cards has killed them more times than I can ignore. 3 damage in 2 turns isn't that much, but if I draw ANY other discard, especially Pox, the game is really over. Also, it can seem harmless and almost seem forgoteen in the first turn...then they have no cards).
Saltz
I love vise now even more. I actually run one in my side board now, and let me tell ya its freaking awesome, DIE BLUE DIE! Ancestral is now take 4 like a bitch and like it!
What was the problem of having Rack/Vise effect during upkeep? just that affected Necro/bargain players? doesnt make sense, now that they are very restricted (in b/r list and deck list), and Pox becomes one of the most fun and affordable ($) decks we can see in T1. Or is it a higher reason like "to make it easier?"
Tax/Ivory Tower? if I had 7 cards in Hand, Land Tax for 3 more, then I get 6 life? abusive? who cares about life this days Is there anyway the draw step can be errated, like to make it an active players` action and go into the stack first, or it would bring problems with anything?
If both Rack and Vise worked at the end of upkeep wouldnt be the same to put their effects first than anything into the stack during upkeep? like a priority effect? I just wanna play more pox!
Than just change The Rack (and maybe Vise) and not Tower.
Saltz
I've asked a similar question on .rules, of dave delaney - hopefully the answer will turn up in the next couple of days. A priority upkeep effect is, I guess, not the desired effect - it would require a major rules change just to fix two cards. Making them draw-triggered didn't require any major steps be taken.
I've seen this ruling. It is sad; I once asked about this on the rules mill and got no reply, then I asked Dan Gray on IRC and got a sad reply (rack worse, vise better). I've been bummed out for months about this :|
--
Chris
How about us oldies just play the cards as they were written (except Mind Twist)?
Actualy a more powerful Black Vise is not a bad thing with the current dominance of Big Blue and Keeper in Type I. Keeps them honest...
Well, I'm a pox player and I'm pretty dissapointed that Rack is not not playable. Unfortunately, I was a large proponent of the chimeric idol/wasteland school instead of the golem/factory school. Now it's not viable because the threats are too weak. I have tossed Pox altogether in favor of Phyrexian Arena, building what I hope to be tuned into the next Necro:
threats:
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Hypnotic Spectre
1 Ihsan's Shade
2 Avatar of Woe
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Drain Life
Other Spells
4 Diabolic edict
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn
4 Dark Ritual
1 Yawg will
1 Consultation
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mind Twist
1 Nev disk
Mana:
1 sol ring
1 mox jet
1 black lotus
1 Strip mine
15 swamps
Now, I could be makin a mistake not playing duress... but I'm not in such a complete hurry to get them to 0 cards now. Anyway, just thought I'd say goodbye to Pox!
Tell you the truth I stopped using The Rack a long time ago in my Pox deck (although maybe since I'm not a Pox Player by nature, and no one ever plays the deck here, I just screwed things up, but it seemed better). I've been using Scroll, Idol, and Hypnotic Specters as the kill card although I might try 3 Netherspirits instead of Hyppies since I find myself not wanting to Pox half the time. The deck is supposed to be a controllish deck no? Rack does nothing but deal damage--Idol can at least block critters and deals damage under any circumstance (barring a Moat).
--Matt
Hey you go... Stright from the Oracle's Keyboard...
This is the response I got from Mr. D'Angelo.
> = my initial email to him.
> The following errata (the same as in a previous email was provided by
> WotC. OAfter discussing this with someone at WotC games support they
> claimed the following errata was more updated that what is on crystalkeep
> et al. What has been explained to be is that for either card, the draw is
> placed on a stack then the card triggers, then you follow last in first out
> rule, there fore:
>
> The Rack:
>
> I enter my draw step w/ 0 cards and am the target of a rack. I draw my
> card, then apply the damage from the rack before that card is considered in
> my hand. This is a last in first out situation so I would take the 3 damage
> as if the card had not yet made it to my hand.
This is not true. The rules state (due to a recent chance, which is in
the May release of the Rulings Summaries) that you place all triggers on
the stack, then place the draw, so the stack looks like this when the
first player gets priority:
1) The Rack
2) Draw a card
At this point, either player can play instants. When both players pass,
you draw a card. Then either player can play instants... including the
drawn card. When both players pass, The Rack's ability resolves. If you
played the card, then you take damage from zero cards. If you didn't
play it then you take damage from 1 card.
It's important to remember although a stack is last-in-first-out that
any number of spells and abilities can be played before each item
resolves. (If you're a long time player, this became true in May 1999...
things resolved completely before you got going.)
At no time did the rules ever have things occur so that cards were not
considered to be in someone's hand. The draw has always been an ability
on the stack.
> The Vise:
>
> I enter my draw step w/ 4 cards in hand and am the target of a vise. I draw
> my card, then apply the damage from the vise before that card is considered
> in my hand. This is a last in first out situation so I would take the no
> damage since the card had not yet made it to my hand.
This card plays out exactly like above. The card may or may not be in your
hand depending on whether or not you played if before the Vise ability
is allowed to resolve.
If the above description isn't enough. Write back and I'll try again.
Best of luck,
Stephen.
ok
who ever made this statement is an idiot!
I mean, if I control the phases, I certainly control my stack, since I'm the active player all my stacking abilities go on first, including the draw.
the rack/vise goes on 2nd, the respective damage is done first, then draw.
Seriously, I want to see the reasoning behind this!
Why make the rack this weak? And the vise stronger?
The problem is that a rule exists that places your draw on the top of the stack last during the beginning of your draw phase. That was not the case when the rack and vise were printed in the first place.
Placing your draw last means that you always DRAW first at the beginning of your DRAW phase, which makes sense. However, it is my opinion that the Rack and the Vise should both be changed to say "upkeep"...
That's what they were originally anyways.
Cloud-
The idiot that I requested clarification from is Stephen D'Angelo of the CrystalKeep-Oracle-Rules-expert-kinda-fame. (No offense Stephen, just making a point of who explained this to me).
The Vice and Rack originally were printed with "upkeep".